I thought this quote from Wesley...

Um, James. That's not 1Cor 23 that you quoted.

It's 1Cor 2:14. It's the end of the chapter where Paul said in 2:6 that he only offered the "things of God" to the "perfect" -- the already saved. There is something that the 'natural man' could receive though. It's the gospel.

Now I can see where you get the notion of regeneration "falls out of the sky," though. I don't know how many times I've heard the phrase "born from above" from John 3 as if Jesus didn't go on and tell Nicodemus what causes it -- "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

I mean, wouldn't you think that these people would say, "Does Jesus mean I'm not going to perish in my first born, natural body? Or .... no. Wait! He means I'm not going to die in my new-born, second-born SPIRIT! Which I get AFTER I believe!"

Jesus didn't present it this way -- 'He should not perish and so he shall believe" -- did He.

I guess every fiber of my being tells me that "mind changing" is an intellectual process that the one with the mind and the original views has to be involved in or it won't happen. That's why I asked you about the "chemical" or "metaphysical" possibilities. But I've never changed my mind without having new information. And I've never discerned myself having a change of mind/heart before I actually accepted that information. Just like when you and I debate -- you don't accept what I say and so you don't change your mind/repent. :tear:

But I have had one Calvinist tell me that a baby can be "born again" at baptism IF the preacher says the right words (perhaps gospel words; I don't know)over the infant. That, to me, would be metaphysical.

Hope it's not a "brain cramp" keeping you from answering my questions. :laugh: I hope there are some logical responses to them from your POV.

skypair

 

James,

You must have been a wiz at rote memorization when you were a kid, eh?

skypair