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Idolatry, or God's will ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004.

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  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    As mentioned in a previous thread, is the practice of charging parishoners to pray to a plastic doll, as they do in Zappopan, and Guadalupe, God's plan for bestowing grace ? Or is it a grevious error ? I am really interested in hearing a defense for this.

    My vote is error. Worse than error, it is purposefully leading people away from the true gospel, and I cannot feel anything but utter contempt for the RCC for their part in this. We often hear about the good charity work the church does around the world, but when it's funded by this practice, is it doing God's work ? Does God condone this ?
     
    #1 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  2. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy Guest

    Brother Curtis,

    Perhaps you could link a site with this full story, or relay the story to us so that we can read it, come to our conclusion with the help of the Holy Spirit, and respond.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
    #2 Littledrummerboy, Dec 13, 2004
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Whether they pray to a plastic doll or not is really irrelvant. The fact is that they pray to idols and the dead. That is idolatry and necromism. Both are condemned in the Bible. Idolatry is expressly condemned right in the Ten Commandments. I was a Catholic for 20 years, deceived in the Catholic Church, and never once heard the gospel message.
    But I did see the idolatry and partook of it like every other good Catholic.
    Every time a Catholic bows before a statue of a crucifix, or one of the stations of the cross, and offers a prayer, that is idolatry. It is expressly condemned in the Ten Commandments which says: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto me any image thereof...
    The Catholic Church violates this repeatedly. Committing idolatry repeatedly. They don't need a plastic doll. They have idols in almost every church ever built.
    DHK
     
    #3 DHK, Dec 13, 2004
  4. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Ex 20-3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

    Here it is in plain english. It's idolatry, no question about it!!

    Peace,

    Tam
     
    #4 tamborine lady, Dec 13, 2004
  5. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    #5 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    I'm really disappointed in you, LDB, this stuff is pretty easy to find. Perhaps a lot of American Catholics are ignorant of these stories, or a lot of American Catholics don't want the story out. In either case, it happens, and it's pretty sickening.

    There are so many reasons I hate the RCC, this is but two examples.
     
    #6 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  7. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy Guest

    Thank you for the articles. I look forward to reding them and giving my two cents. As for the disapointment...I appologize if I have disapointed you (I think, rather, I have in some way actually pleased you because it somehow validates a presupposition of yours), but I am quite busy, and do not have time to read everything little occurance that happens in my church. I do know of the idolotry that occurs in some latin american countries, and my heart weeps for them, but it is a superstitious culture, and the people, not the church, do happen to take some things too far. DHK, and tambourine...we are talking past each other on this point...we define terms differently, and neither of us is willing to change that definition...so condemn me if you will, but do so with the idea of continued conversation in mind, that way we may one day grow from each other through the powers of the 2nd and 3rd persons of the Holy Trinity.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen

    p.s. if any of you could offer up prayers...it is finals week, and my life seems like it has suffered from a serious of train wrecks! Thanks.
     
    #7 Littledrummerboy, Dec 13, 2004
  8. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "This tiny statue has been visited by and honored by heads of state, city and state officials and dignitaries, and finally in 1979, received her most devoted pilgrim, His Holiness Pope John Paul II."
     
    #8 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Not quite:

    You shall not bow down to them or worship them
    The context of the commandment is not a ban on making of a statue, the context is of worshipping a statue. Catholics don't worship statues, nor do they worship the person the statue represents. However, I do think that the practice does go down that road. While it goes down the road, it does not cross the line.

    Let me clarify that my post is not an attempt to encourage such customs. I don't encourage this in any way. But neither should we accuse someone of soing something they're not, based on an ourside perception.

    I have no doubt that this post will generate a bit of flak. But hey, it's been a slow morning.

    [ December 13, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
    #9 Johnv, Dec 13, 2004
  10. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    John, I'm sorry, but you are very wrong. The context is you cannot bow before a statue. You cannot tell me these folks don't worship this doll, and you cannot deny the pope himself condones it.

    Still waiting for a catholic defense. I'm not going away very soon. I'll be bumping this from time to time.
     
    #10 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  11. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The context of the commandment is to refrain from worshipping false gods or images of false gods. They're not worshipping false gods. Catholics don't believe in any deity except for Yahweh.

    Now, just to reiterate myself, for fear of being accused of something I didn't say (does that ever happen here??): I"m not espousing, condoning, or recommending the use of statues in the manner which is typically used in the RCC. I'm simply clarifying that the statues are not being used by the RCC to worship the statue. That doesn't mean I condone it, though.
     
    #11 Johnv, Dec 13, 2004
  12. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    I'm not concerned if you condone it or not. It's the fact that these people CLEARLY see powers in this doll, and look to it for grace and mercy. That is worship. they pray to it, they hope the doll hears prayer, and attribute miracles to it. It's worship, plain and simple.
     
    #12 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  13. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "She has long played an important role for the people of this state, although there was the time when She almost lost Her title as the Patroness of Jalisco to a rival Virgin - the Virgin of San Juan de Los Lagos, the Virgin of Salud. After a lengthy "Battle of the Virgins" and intense negotiations, the slightly less appreciated Virgin from the high counties just out of Guadalajara withdrew with good grace to continue to reign over her highlands home area, leaving The Virgin of Zapopan Patroness of the State of Jalisco"

    [​IMG]
     
    #13 Bro. Curtis, Dec 13, 2004
  14. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy Guest

    I wanted to let you know I am not ignoring this post. I have a lot on my plate right now, but as soon as I can (probably towards the end of the week, Thursday, Friday, Saturdayish) I will read the articles and comment.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
    #14 Littledrummerboy, Dec 13, 2004
  15. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Just tell us yer gut feeling. You seem to have time post in other threads.

    Just kidding, take your time.
     
    #15 Bro. Curtis, Dec 14, 2004
  16. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "But Pope Juan Paul II wanted Juan Diego canonized, and he finally had it done. It’s impossible not to see papal politics at work here. Now that the Catholic Church is losing the hearts of Mexicans, the Vatican has decided it had better officialize the Virgin of Guadalupe in an attempt to keep Mexican support. But in the long run it might not help much, because the Virgin of Guadalupe really has less to do with Catholic doctrine and practice and more to do with Mexican identity and nationalism."

    SOURCE
     
    #16 Bro. Curtis, Dec 14, 2004
  17. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "Martinez said she and her husband, Leopoldo Contreras, 33, always rose early on Dec. 12 to celebrate the Virgin in their native Guanajuato, Mexico. She said they have prayed to their patron saint many times, in hopes they will remain safe wherever they go."

    SOURCE
     
    #17 Bro. Curtis, Dec 14, 2004
  18. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "Virgin of Zapopan, Rain Goddess In Mexico, She is Mary, Chalchiuhtlique, Changing Woman, Yemaya.
    The sixth day of the Moon/month belongs to Artemis, as ruler of animals.
    St. Faith feast day.
    Thesmophoria- Greek festival commemorating the transformation of Goddess Kore (Queen of the Living) into Persephone (Queen of the Dead). She abandoned Her Mother, Goddess Demeter, and eloped to Elysium with Her partner, God Dionysos/Plouton, accompanied by Goddess Hekate and spirits of the dead. 6-9
    Vishnu"

    SOURCE

    The plot, she thickens, no ?
     
    #18 Bro. Curtis, Dec 14, 2004
  19. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "Members of the Club of Mexican Circus’ Clowns and Artists attends a mass at the Basilica of Guadalupe after carrying out their XXIV Annual Pilgrimage to worship the Holy Virgin of Guadalupe, patron saint of Mexico."

    SOURCE
     
    #19 Bro. Curtis, Dec 14, 2004
  20. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    "The Virgin of Zapopan, patron saint of Guadalajara since 1734, is considered throughout Jalisco and many other parts of the country, as a miracle maker. After her long pilgrimage through most of the churches in the city, on her birthday (October 12), she begins the 7km journey back home. The Llevada de la Virgen takes her from the Guadalajara Cathedral back to the Basílica de Zapopan. Because of her innate gift for helping people, thousands gather for the procession to escort her back, accompanied by prayer, chanting and song."
    SOURCE
     
    #20 Bro. Curtis, Dec 14, 2004
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