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If a language is changing?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 4His_glory, Mar 23, 2009.

  1. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

    Jan 11, 2005
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    I noticed that on another thread it was suggested that todays spoken English is "dumbed down" when compared to that spoken in 1611. If this is true then then it would give credence to the idea that modern English translations are "dumbed down" as well.

    HOWEVER. Since we know that languages such as English (along with several others) are living languages, i.e. they are growing, changing or evolving, it would be faulty to suggest that our modern English is "dumbed down". Change does not equal a weakening and actually in some cases would be a strengthening of a language. Anyone that has studied the history of languages would probably argue that English improved grammatically between each period of its development.

    Therefore would it not make logical sense that a modern translation of the Bible into English, be an improvement? I do realize that this does not take into consideration the textual platform but that is a whole different topic. I am focusing on the newness of the language that is used.

    I guess what I am getting at is why would someone consider modern English to be a lesser form of English than that of 1611 when it is a living language?
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    May 12, 2004
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    I think they have an idea that God speaks only 17th century English.
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    Though the KJV came out in the early 17th century and was modified in the latter 18th century -- it's basically a 16th century production. KJVO's don't think God can superintend any 21st century Bible versions which feature the modern vernacular.
  4. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Feb 12, 2008
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    Many years ago someone said to me, in all seriousness, "If King James English was good enough for Jesus, why isn't it good enough for you?"
  5. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

    Mar 16, 2009
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    Way too many people treat the KJV as if it was the original. Then you have extreme KJVO's that think its the second inspired original.
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    The 1611 KJV did keep a great of the language and renderings of the earlier 1500's English Bibles, but it also updated them in a number of places. There are hundreds of renderings in the 1568 Bishops' Bible of which the KJV was officially a revision that the KJV updated or revised. According to a consistent application of some KJV-only claims about "dumbing down," the KJV could be claimed to have toned down or "dumbed" down some words in the Bishops' Bible or other pre-1611 English Bibles. Here are some examples from the Gospel of John and from Acts.

    John 2:2 unto the marriage (Bishops) to the marriage (KJV)
    John 4:22 ye wot not what (Bishops) ye know not what (KJV)
    John 4:25 I wot that Messias (Bishops) I know that Messias (KJV)
    John 4:32 that ye wot not of (Bishops) that ye know not of (KJV)
    John 4:35 unto harvest (Bishops) to harvest (KJV)
    John 5:24 into damnation (Bishops) into condemnation (KJV)
    John 6:17 And gat up into a ship (Bishops) And entered into a ship (KJV)
    John 7:2 Get thee hence and go into Jewry (Bishops) Depart hence, and go into Judaea (KJV)
    John 7:15 the scriptures (Bishops) letters (KJV)
    John 7:23 disdain ye at me (Bishops) are ye angry at me (KJV)
    John 8:4 even as the deed was a doing (Bishops) in the very act (KJV)
    John 9:22 excommunicate out (Bishops) put out (KJV)
    John 9:35 they had excommunicate him (Bishops) they had cast him out (KJV)
    John 11:4 infirmity (Bishops) sickness (KJV)
    John 11:49 Ye perceive nothing at all (Bishops) Ye know nothing at all (KJV)
    John 11:54 country nigh to a wilderness (Bishops) country near to the wilderness (KJV)
    John 11:55 before the Easter (Bishops) before the passover (KJV)
    John 13:7 wotest not now (Bishops) knowest not now (KJV)
    John 13:12 Wot ye (Bishops) Know ye (KJV)
    John 13:15 ensample (Bishops) example (KJV)
    John 13:28 wist (Bishops) knew (KJV)
    John 13:34 give I (Bishops) I give (KJV)
    John 13:37 will jeoparde (Bishops) will lay down (KJV)
    John 14:30 will I not talk many words (Bishops) I will not talk much (KJV)
    John 16:33 have I spoken (Bishops) I have spoken (KJV)
    John 20:13 I wot not (Bishops) I know not (KJV)
    John 21:6 and anon (Bishops) and now (KJV)
    Acts 2:14 Ye men of Jewry (Bishops) Ye men of Judaea (KJV)
    Acts 2:24 it was unpossible (Bishops) it was not possible (KJV)
    Acts 2:36 know of a surety (Bishops) know assuredly (KJV)
    Acts 4:36 Joses, which (Bishops) Joses, who (KJV)
    Acts 5:21 to fet them (Bishops) to have them brought (KJV)
    Acts 6:1 a grudge (Bishops) a murmuring (KJV)
    Acts 7:20 acceptable unto God (Bishops) exceeding fair (KJV)
    Acts 8:7 many that haulted (Bishops) that were lame (KJV)
    Acts 8:15 Which when they (Bishops) Who, when they (KJV)
    Acts 8:36 doth let me to be baptized (Bishops) doth hinder me to be baptized (KJV)
    Acts 10:10 And when he waxed hungry (Bishops) And he became very hungry (KJV)
    Acts 10:17 had made inquirance (Bishops) had made enquiry (KJV)

    Acts 10:41 which did eat (Bishops) who did eat (KJV)
    Acts 10:45 were astonied (Bishops) were astonished (KJV)
    Acts 11:26 they had their conversation (Bishops) they assembled themselves (KJV)
    Acts 11:29 send succour (Bishops) send relief (KJV)
    Acts 12:16 astonied (Bishops) astonished (KJV)
    Acts 13:15 after the lecture (Bishops) after the reading (KJV)
    Acts 13:46 It was meet (Bishops) It was necessary (KJV)
    Acts 15:1 from Jewry (Bishops) from Judaea (KJV)
    Acts 15:35 with other many (Bishops) with many others also (KJV)
    Acts 16:5 stablished in the faith (Bishops) established in the faith (KJV)
    Acts 16:10 being certified (Bishops) assuredly gathering (KJV)
    Acts 16:16 much vantage (Bishops) much gain (KJV)
    Acts 16:25 lauded God (Bishops) sang praises unto God (KJV)
    Acts 16:36 get you hence (Bishops) depart (KJV)
    Acts 16:37 fet us out (Bishops) fetch us out (KJV)
    Acts 17:34 other with them (Bishops) others with them (KJV)
    Acts 19:9 the way of the Lord (Bishops) that way (KJV)
    Acts 19:25 by this craft we have advantage (Bishops) by this craft we have our wealth (KJV)
    Acts 19:40 in jeopardy (Bishops) in danger (KJV)
    Acts 20:7 unto midnight (Bishops) until midnight (KJV)
    Acts 20:10 make nothing a do (Bishops) Trouble not yourselves (KJV)
    Acts 20:19 humbleness of mind (Bishops) humility of mind (KJV)
    Acts 20:33 vesture (Bishops) apparel (KJV)
    Acts 21:10 a good many of days (Bishops) many days (KJV)
    Acts 21:30 people swarmed together (Bishops) people ran together (KJV)
    Acts 24:16 And herein study I (Bishops) And herein do I exercise myself (KJV)
    Acts 24:16 alway (Bishops) always (KJV)
    Acts 24:18 nor yet with unquietness (Bishops) nor with tumult (KJV)
    Acts 25:27 For me thinketh it unreasonable (Bishops) For it seemeth to me unreasonable (KJV)
    Acts 26:27 I wot well that (Bishops) I know that (KJV)
    Acts 28:1 the isle (Bishops) the island (KJV)
    Acts 28:2 the strangers (Bishops) the barbarous people (KJV)
    Acts 28:7 which received us (Bishops) who received us (KJV)
    Acts 28:15 and waxed bold (Bishops) and took courage (KJV)
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    Tyndale : and entered into a ship

    TYN. :example

    TYN. : will give thy life

    TYN. : to fetch them

    Is 'murmuring' supposed to be easier than 'grudge' ?

    TYN. : established in the faith

    Is the KJV reading supposed to be the less difficult one?

    TYN. : let us out

    TYN. : the way

    TYN. : a good many days

    The Tyndale translation doesn't have either word.

    Is "the isle" supposed to be more difficult than "the island"?

    TYN. : the people of the country

    TYN. : the same received us

    Forget the Bishop's Bible for a moment, the Tyndale Bible has more modern-sounding readings than it is being given credit for.
    #7 Rippon, Mar 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2009
  8. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

    Jan 11, 2005
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    And here all along I thought He spoke Spanish.:smilewinkgrin:
  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Tyndale's Bible did have some words that are no longer in use including some words that the KJV did not use, but they were likely words still in use in his day. For example, arede (Mark 14:65) and "grece" (Acts 21:35). On the other hand, Tyndale's does have many more up-to-date or "modern-sounding" renderings where the KJV has a more archaic rendering.
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Active Member
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    Oct 22, 2004
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    Here are some examples of how the KJV updated and revised many renderings of the Bishops' Bible in the books of 1 and 2 Kings. Even though it had only been 43 years since the 1568 Bishops' Bible was made, the KJV introduced many changes in its language.

    1 Kings 1:4 was exceeding fair (Bishops) was very fair (KJV)
    1 Kings 1:31 I pray God that my lord king David may live for ever (Bishops)
    Let my lord king David live for ever (KJV)
    1 Kings 2:5 thou wottest (Bishops) thou knowest (KJV)
    1 Kings 2:9 But thou shalt not count him unguilty (Bishops)
    Now therefore hold him not guiltless (KJV)
    1 Kings 2:12 stablished mightily (Bishops) established greatly (KJV)
    1 Kings 2:40 gat him to Gath (Bishops) went to Gath (KJV)
    1 Kings 3:7 wot not how (Bishops) know not how (KJV)
    1 Kings 3:8 told nor numbered (Bishops) numbered nor counted (KJV)
    1 Kings 6:5 the quier (Bishops) the oracle (KJV)
    1 Kings 6:19 And the quier (Bishops) And the oracle (KJV)
    1 Kings 8:6 the quier of the temple (Bishops) the oracle of the house (KJV)
    1 Kings 8:63 to wit twenty and two (Bishops) two and twenty (KJV)
    1 Kings 9:4 in righteousness (Bishops) in uprightness (KJV)
    1 Kings 9:5 stablish (Bishops) establish (KJV)
    1 Kings 9:25 And thrice a year (Bishops) And three times in a year (KJV)
    1 Kings 10:2 gold exceeding much (Bishops) very much gold (KJV)
    1 Kings 10:10 six score (Bishops) an hundred and twenty (KJV)
    1 Kings 10:24 world resorted to Solomon (Bishops) earth sought to Solomon (KJV)
    1 Kings 11:1 outlandish women (Bishops) strange women (KJV)
    1 Kings 11:19 gat great favour (Bishops) found great favour (KJV)
    1 Kings 12:13 answered the people churlishly (Bishops) answered the people roughly (KJV)
    1 Kings 13:6 as it was afore (Bishops) as it was before (KJV)
    1 Kings 13:13 he gat him up thereon (Bishops) he rode thereon (KJV)
    1 Kings 13:20 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    1 Kings 13:33 converted not (Bishops) turned not (KJV)
    1 Kings 14:26 spoiled all that was to be had (Bishops) he even took away all (KJV)
    1 Kings 15:12 male stewes (Bishops) sodomites (KJV)
    1 Kings 16:11 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    1 Kings 17:14 oil in the cruse be minished (Bishops) cruse of oil fail (KJV)
    1 Kings 18:17 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    1 Kings 18:29 And it chanced (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    1 Kings 18:45 Ahab gat up (Bishops) Ahab rode (KJV)
    1 Kings 20:12 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)

    1 Kings 20:22 play the man (Bishops) strengthen thyself (KJV)
    1 Kings 20:24 put dukes (Bishops) put captains (KJV)
    1 Kings 20:43 wayward and in displeasure (Bishops) heavy and displeased (KJV)
    1 Kings 21:5 thy spirit so wayward (Bishops) thy spirit so sad (KJV)
    1 Kings 21:15 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    1 Kings 21:21 will make clean riddance of thy posterity (Bishops)
    will take away thy posterity (KJV)
    1 Kings 21:24 and that because Jezebel his wife pricked him forward (Bishops)
    whom Jezebel his wife stirred up (KJV)
    1 Kings 22:9 called a chamberlain (Bishops) called an officer (KJV)
    1 Kings 22:46 the stewes of the males (Bishops) the sodomites (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:1 And it chanced (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:8 part the one way (Bishops) hither (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:9 ere I be taken away (Bishops) before I be taken away (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:11 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Kings 3:19 every good plat of ground (Bishops) every good piece of land (KJV)
    2 Kings 3:21 was able to put on harness (Bishops) were able to put on armour (KJV)
    2 Kings 4:1 to fet my two sons (Bishops) to take unto him my two sons (KJV)
    2 Kings 4:28 did I not require thee (Bishops) did I not say (KJV)
    2 Kings 4:11 And it fortuned on a day (Bishops) And it fell on a day (KJV)
    2 Kings 5:1 given health unto Syria (Bishops) given deliverance unto Syria (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:9 Syrians are lurking (Bishops) Syrians are come down (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:25 great dearth (Bishops) great famine (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:27 do not succour thee (Bishops) do not help thee (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:32 Be circumspect when the messenger (Bishops) Look when the messenger (KJV)
    2 Kings 7:10 as they were wont to be (Bishops) as they were (KJV)
    2 Kings 9:4 gat him to Ramoth Gilead (Bishops) went to Ramoth-gilead (KJV)
    2 Kings 9:16 Jehu gat up into a charet (Bishops) he arose (KJV)
    2 Kings 10:2 and harness (Bishops) and armour (KJV)
    2 Kings 10:7 threescore and ten (Bishops) seventy (KJV)
    2 Kings 10:15 coming against him (Bishops) coming to meet him (KJV)
    2 Kings 13:17 arrow of health against Syria (Bishops) arrow of deliverance from Syria (KJV)
    2 Kings 15:19 stablish the kingdom (Bishops) confirm the kingdom (KJV)
    2 Kings 17:5 and gat up against Samaria (Bishops) and went up to Samaria (KJV)
    2 Kings 17:14 like to the stubbornness of their fathers (Bishops)
    like to the neck of their fathers (KJV)
    2 Kings 18:4 all to brake the brasen serpent (Bishops) brake in pieces the brasen serpent (KJV)
    2 Kings 18:8 the coasts (Bishops) the borders (KJV)
    2 Kings 18:17 gat them up and stood (Bishops) came and stood (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:4 Peradventure (Bishops) It may be (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:12 mine ancestors (Bishops) my fathers (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:23 lusty fir trees (Bishops) choice fir trees (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:26 the inhabiters of them (Bishops) their inhabitants (KJV)
    2 Kings 21:6 tellers of fortunes (Bishops) wizards (KJV)
    2 Kings 21:16 replenished Hierusalem (Bishops) filled Jerusalem (KJV)
    2 Kings 22:11 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Kings 22:19 thine heart did melt (Bishops) thine heart was tender (KJV)

    2 Kings 23:4 the inferior priests (Bishops) priests of the second order (KJV)
    2 Kings 24:15 his chamberlains (Bishops) his officers (KJV)
  11. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Dec 6, 2002
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    IMO, the "dumbed down" idea was apparently started by someone who sought some kind of support, no matter how feeble, for the KJVO position. The English language is a growing and evolving language, and it makes sense that modern Bible translations should reflect that growth and evolution. The important thing is not that the words of the Bible don't change as KJVOs errrantly believe, but that the MESSAGE of the Bible doesn't change. Modern Bible translations keep God's message alive and vibrant for today's readers just as it was for readers of the first century.