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If Calvinism is true...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Mar 16, 2006.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    As Hoeksema and others have said , Arminians put themselves in the role of the objectors to what Paul was saying in Romans 9 . If they complain they are rebelling against God's express , authoritative Word .
     
  2. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    And God predestined them to disobediently rebel! ;)
     
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Whatever, I have questions and challenges I want answered now, so no, I am not going to let you sidetrack this thread.

    If God predestines/orders sin, how can it be sin? It is being done in OBEDIENCE to His command!
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    If God told them to rebel, and they rebelled, they were not in rebellion.
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Did God presdestinate the men to die in the West Virginia Coal mines recently?
     
  6. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I've answered you. Scripture says it can be sin. Scripture does not explain how it so, but it assuredly says that it is so.
    No, His decree is not the same as His command. He commanded Pharoah to let His people go, and He decreed that Pharoah would disobey in order that His power would be shown.

    Just for the record, I don't expect you to start answering my questions now. Your consistent refusal to address salient passages from the Bible says all that needs to be said.
     
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    OK, whatever, please define sin. Scripturally -- what is the definition of sin?
     
  8. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Scripture says God doesn't so much as "tempt man" with sin, much less "predestine him" to sin.

    Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    Can you explain "WHY" these men sinned, since God didn't have a "hand in it"????

    Calvin's doctrine of predestination "Accuses" God of being "responsible" for the sins of man, just as you have, but scripture says you are "WRONG".
     
  9. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?
     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    So you are saying yes. I have heard the Calvinist preach at funerals that there would be babies in Hell no bigger than the span of my hand. Did God predestinate those babies to go to Hell?
     
  11. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Read my post above, if God doesn't "tempt" man to sin, then how could he "predestine" Pharoah to sin?? (disobey)
     
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Posted by Whatever:
    Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

    If Man builds a levy to hold back the ocean and God sends rain to water the earth and the levy gives away, who did it, God who sent the rain for all, or man who built the levies to make money?
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    My point is that, if Calvinism is true, and everything we do and say and think and are is predestined and ordered by God, then we run into some problems: (Helen)

    No it's not Scott it is Calvinism and Calvinism is broad. The 'think' is ours, I think, but everything else is God's. I wouldn't say we were robots I would say that the sheep are glove puppets and the reprobates are string puppets. :cool: That is Calvinism as well.

    By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

    By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day, viz., that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death - all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But who has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10: 30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Book I Chapter 16. http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/calprov.htm )

    That is not hyper-Calvinism. God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility, never the twain shall meet.

    Notice the progression. God had already said in chapter 4 that He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not obey. Then the command is issued in chapter 5. In chapter 9, God says Pharaoh is responsible for disobeying. (I'm not trying to get you agreeing with me Calvi, I used your bit because it sums up what happened, neatly.)

    For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose... (What purpose was Pharaoh raised up for Helen?)
    ...that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (What did He do to Him Helen? Did He ask Pharaoh's permission? :cool: )
    God was strutting His stuff on an helpless man who could not resist His will, Who hardened him into not obeying, and then he gets it in the neck for not obeying Him. (Why does God still blame us Helen? Why aren't you one of those that would ask? Paul was expecting a question not a denial. Why does God still blame us?)

    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me:...(How about you standingfirmin? Are you going to be one?)..."Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

    There is no answer but a serious warning, 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    What was the purpose of God in choosing Esau for Hell and then creating him for Hell Helen, doesn't the scripture say, ...in order that God's purpose in election might stand:? That is why Esau goes to Hell, because God used him as an example of His Sovereignty praise His Name. That is also why Jacob was loved, just because God said it shall be so, revealing His Sovereignty in election The Despot, Esau is hated because God wanted to show us He does as He pleases and it shows us what we have missed and through that to worship Him more so. God says we are responsible but in the saying He does not reliquish Sovereignty. The Despot assigns He does not ask. :cool: He wills in our will to do His will. Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Free will and Sweet Jesus is the great delusion sent.

    john.
     
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I've never heard a Calvinist preach that, so I can't say. That doesn't sound like the Calvinists that I know. I personally do not believe that babies who die go to Hell, but if it happens then who am I to argue with God?
     
  15. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I read it, I'm just having a hard time keeping up with you guys and with March Madness too.

    You are confusing predestination with temptation, much like Helen and sfiC confused predestination with giving orders or commands. They are not the same thing.

    God determined beforehand that Pharoah would freely choose to yield to the temptation that came from within himself. There was never a chance that Pharoah would choose anything other than the path that he freely choose, because God had decreed that it would be so.
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    If I told a person to kick a dog, and my wife told him not to kick the dog, and he kicked that dog...

    would he be obedient? or disobedient?
     
  17. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    To the Calvinists:

    1. Please define sin, either here or in the thread started for that purpose.

    2. Who are you to argue with me since God has predestined I should think and say all this?
     
  18. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    This is from ISBE:

    Let's go with that definition.
     
  19. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Again, what God has predestined and what He has commanded are not the same thing.
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello standingfirm. :cool: The bible clearly says God predestined those who disobey, For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.

    So you claim the complete opposite is true a? God bound all men over to disobedience, believe that before you try to understand it. Scripture is against you. And that 'all men' includes Adam and Eve. :cool:

    RO 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
    How unsearchable his judgments,
    and his paths beyond tracing out!

    RO 11:34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?"

    RO 11:35 "Who has ever given to God,
    that God should repay him?"

    RO 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
    To him be the glory forever! Amen.


    john.
     
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