If Christ died for Judas just as He did for Peter

Gina </font>[/QUOTE]No, I witness by sharing the good news. The good news is that God dwelt with us in the flesh, bore our sins on the cross, is risen again, lives, and even now intercedes for us. I share the fact that the love of God is immeasurably greater than anything the world has to offer. And so on...

I don't see how sharing the good news has anything to do with knowning who will receive it as good news. If I shout into a room, "Free pizza for all!" that's good news, isn't it? But there may be some there who don't like pizza. What do you want me to do -- beat them over the head with a Pizza Bible until they learn to like Pizza? No, I simply deliver the good news. Some will receive it as good news today, and there's even the possibility that some who do not receive it as good news today will receive it as good news someday in the future. It's all up to God.

 

Bore "our" sins? Isn't that dishonest of you to say that to an unbeliever, since as a Calvinist you don't know whose since He died for?
Unless you're not one. I'm trying to pick on the Calvinists here.
Gina

 

No, it's not dishonest, regardless of what type of Calvinist you are. Some Calvinists believe that Jesus atoned for everyone's sins, but that the atonement is only effectual for the elect. Others believe that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.

1. For those who believe Jesus' atonement is sufficient for all, but effectual only for the elect: It is true that Jesus bore EVERYONE'S sins.

2. For those who believe Jesus atoned only for the sins of the elect: We do not have the privilege of knowing who the elect are. But as Christians, we know we are among the elect. Therefore, speaking as a Christian, one can say with perfect honesty that Jesus bore our sins. However, if that particular wording makes YOU uncomfortable, there are other ways of presenting the Gospel.

John 3:16 is an excellent example of another way to express the Gospel.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Every word is true, whether or not the listener is among the elect. If he/she is not among the elect and therefore will never believe, that doesn't make the verse false. It is still true that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

As for "so loved the world", I already addressed that. This part of John 3:16 expresses the magnitude of what God did in SPITE of what the world deserves. It would introduce contradictions in the Bible to interpret it to mean God loves everything and everyone in the world.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Malachi 1:
"Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated

And if it meant God loves the world and everything in it, why would God say through John...

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Obviously, God does not love everything and everyone in the world. That's why John 3:16 so aptly expresses God's mercy. In spite of all these things, God STILL loved the world enough such that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Considering the fact that we all deserve to perish, THAT is an amazing love.

 

Hi Npeterley;

Is it possible that the elect is everyone? even the gentiles.
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

So you've said before but yet haven't proven it.

You're forgetting all the other whosever's in the bible. This next verse in particular I don't believe even you would say that this is only speaking to a certain group.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Does this mean anyone?
How about this verse?
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Does this mean anyone? or only the people you like.

What do think this whosoever means?
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

John 3:16 isn't the only verse in the Bible that has whosoever in it and in everyone of them the word means the same thing. It means anyone.

There is no denying it. You have no evidence at all that proves that it means something else.
The word means "anyone". It doesn't mean some pre-select group. When the Jews didn't receive Christ, they were blinded because of the unbelief. and the rest of the world was chosen to come to Him.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is an invitation for everyone who labors and are heavy laden.

According to my Bible Program there are 163 verses with whosoever in it so taking Jn 3:16 and saying this verse doesn't say what it very clearly says just isn't right.

May God Bless You;
Mike

 

It means anyone who murders. It does not address anything about who murders or why they murder. (I say "murder" because that is the original intent - at times, God commanded people to kill.)

It means those who confess Jesus before men. It doesn't say anything about who is able to confess Jesus before men, who is willing to confess Jesus before men, or who will confess Jesus before men. The only thing I can assume from the context is that THESE PARTICULAR PEOPLE will confess Jesus before men because they are Spirit-led to do so, and not THOSE PARTICULAR PEOPLE who will confess Jesus before men for personal gain or other bad motives. After all, Jesus Himself said that not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven -- which tells you SOME PEOPLE will confess Jesus before men, yet they are not those to whom Jesus is referring in this passage.

This is an excellent verse! Here, finally, you have a verse that describes a PARTICULAR people. It doesn't say, "Whosoever decides of their own free will to labor and be heavy laden." This invitation is specifically to people who DO labor and ARE heavy laden. These are people who are weighed down in their sins and want peace and rest.

Now, the question you must ask, is why isn't EVERYBODY weary and heavy laden with their spiritual state? Calvinism and Arminianism have different answers to that question, which shows you that the verse itself proves neither. But at least you should be able to see it's not an invitation to ANYONE, it's an invitation to a people in a particular state of spirit.

We can quote "whoever" verses all day if you like. How about this one?

Exodus 32:24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

Does this mean everyone has gold? Does it mean that gold is freely available to anyone who wants it? (I'm not talking about "freely available" as in "you can earn it" or "you can mine it" but as in "God will just give it to you".)

1 Kings 14:11 The dogs shall eat whoever belongs to Jeroboam and dies in the city, and the birds of the air shall eat whoever dies in the field; for the LORD has spoken!"'

Since the word "whoever" appears, did these people belong to Jeroboam and die in the city of their own free will? Did they die in the field of their own free will? Is this an invitation for people to come and die in Jeroboam of their own free will?

Proverbs 9:4 "Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!"

Are these people simple of their own free will? Is it an invitation for people to become simple of their own free will?

Face it. "Whosoever believes" refers to "those who believe". It does not tell you whether they believe of their own free will, nor does it tell you if they believe because they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. All it says is that those who believe will not perish. It's still a beautiful verse - one of the most precious in the Bible.

 

Hi Npetreley;
We finally agree that whosoever means anyone. The words that come before or after can categorize the "anyone", but whosoever means anyone.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Now the whosoever in Jn,3:16 isn't defined as a specific group, or category, but was meant to read as anyone that believes.

No it doesn't say who ever decided to labor or be heavy laden. Everyone Labors and is heavy laden with something we all are. It plainly states anyone and you won't accept that. Your argument about what this word means in Jn.3:16 is unfounded. Your argument is with God.
May God Bless You with Light;
Mike

 

Mt 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Lu 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Joh 7:37
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Joh 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Re 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mt 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mr 1:17
And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

Mr 10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Lu 14:23
And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Lu 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Re 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Re 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

There's an awful lot of whosoever's and any man's and come's to get around to claim Limited Atonement.
So how do Calvinists get around all those?
Usually what I see is that they take these verses and add to them. They will say something like "what it REALLY means is whosoever GOD PRE-PICKED".
Isn't there a verse in Revelation that warns against doing this?
Yet, if you don't, you can't prove Calvinism as a true theological viewpoint.
Can you?
Gina

 

We could go around on this forever, so I'm just going to say my final piece and let you and ILUV have the last words.

It doesn't matter how many "any man" verses, etc., you can produce. That doesn't mean these verses necessarily apply to EVERY man. (Some do, some don't.)

Actually YOU are the one who is adding to scripture. You insist that John 3:16's "whosoever" MUST mean "anyone who wants to of their own free will". I'm the one who is saying that it only says what it says -- that "whoever believes" means "whoever believes" and those words don't tell you anything about WHY they believe. I am neither adding "free will" nor "election" to John 3:16.

Again, you are the one who is adding to scripture in order to prove your viewpoint. I am saying John 3:16 does proves NEITHER Arminianism NOR Calvinism.

But even outside John 3:16, both Calvinists and Arminians believe they can prove their views from scripture without adding or subtracting. Just browse this forum for all the scriptural arguments on both sides. So my answer to "can you?" is, most certainly, yes. But as we can't even seem to get past the word "whosoever", I don't think it's a good use of my time to try to do so here.

However, I will address two of your verses that I happen to find interesting.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Whenever one encounters words like "any" or "all", one should ask, "any of whom?" "Any person who ever lived, lives or will live?" "Any left-handed person?" "Any of whom?"

Sometimes the context of the verse can tell you "all of whom". And I believe, in this case, the context does.

First, to whom is Peter writing this letter?

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

(As a side comment, notice that Peter says "received a faith as precious as ours" -- "faith" itself is a gift - but that's another story)

Now, in the immediate context of 2 Peter 3:9, Peter again identifies to whom he is speaking (emphasis mine)...

8 But, BELOVED, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering TOWARD US, not willing that ANY [of us] should perish but that ALL [of us] should come to repentance.

So while you are free to interpret "any" and "all" to mean everyone, the context points to Peter's audience -- the beloved, the body, the elect. Is that proof? No, but it's the natural reading of the text.

Re 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Once again, does "any man" mean "any man who ever lived, lives or will live?" Maybe, but Jesus puts an interesting qualifier on it. Jesus doesn't say, "if any man opens the door". He says, "if any man hear my voice, and open the door".

Are we able to "hear" of our own free will? Or do we get the ability to hear His voice from somewhere? God, maybe?

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

And God has the ability to deafen men, and does so at times.

Romans 11:8
Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."

And God opens the hearts (and ears) of those whom He will.

Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

 

Nick, as an outside observer I must interject and say that I don't think they were trying to say it applies to EVERY man but that it can apply to ANY man.

Its the same with whosoever. It doesn't mean that everyone will believe and be saved, but it certainly implies that any one COULD BELIEVE and be saved. Do you see the difference.

 

Yes, Paul is most likely addressing believers in the verse 2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Sure, he's addressing weary saints who long for the return of our Savior.
But you fail to see the meaning in what Paul says. He lets them the wait is worth it, for He is not willing that any should perish, not ANY, but that ALL might come to repentance. The saved have already come to repentence. Who's left? The unbelievers.
Your only way around this verse, should you wish to try to find a way out, would be that Paul means the Lord's return is held off because he's waiting for the rest of the elect to come to repentance.
Why would He do that if it's not up to the unbeliever to come to repentance? Surely our Lord has no need to delay His return because He's waiting on ... Himself.

Yes, there are examples of pure election in the bible, and cases of hardening the heart of a person.

Of course, a believer credits and thanks God for granting one the faith to believe. This doesn't mean that if one doesn't accept that urging from the Holy Spirit, God's wish was for him to burn in hell eternally.

Gina

 

I can see how you might come to that conclusion, but that's not how I read it. Who's left are the beloved -- the remaining elect in that and future generations who will be saved. God has plans for those people, and the reason He is taking a long time to return is that He is not willing that ANY of them perish.

Here's food for thought along that line...

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Interesting isn't it? There's a full number of Gentiles who will come in, and God has blinded Israel in part until that full number of Gentiles has come in. Sounds to me like God will not return too soon, because He is unwilling to allow any of these full number of Gentiles to perish, just as God is not willing that any of His elect -- present and future -- among the Jews perish.

 

Hi Npetreley;

The point is that "any man" and "every man' do not mean the same thing. We aren't talking about every man believing but any who do or, would care to.

God created man with all the abilities to either believe or not. He doesn't have to enable them to believe he already can by the creation of God.

Some how I doubt that I'll have the last word but God will. I know you believe in God passonately but, anyone can be wrong about specifics. I know I certainly have been many times. I admit that I'm not perfect in my Salvation or theology. I have looked at Calvinism and found it to be lacking.
I've been told that God is Sovereign and this is why Calvinist claim man has no freewill, or choice in his own Salvation. This is totally unsupported. I've been told all of the Calvinist doctrine several times. The thing that bothers me most is that with out the human explanation it doesn't make any sense according to the gospel.

I'm sorry if I've said anything that might make you dislike me in this argument, because this was not my intention. I have looked at Calvinism as a means of checking my own faith and theology. By having these debates I have learned very much from you all.

I hope we will have more of the same in the future.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

What do the Calvinists on here believe the consequences/changes would be if Jesus did indeed die for the whole world to that anyone in the world could choose to come to Him?
How would it change Christianity?

For the free willers, how do you think Christianity is changed if Jesus blood was shed only for those God chose to be saved?
Gina

 

Strange that Bob Ryan of the Adventists (no disrespect, Bob) should be able to grasp the meaning and significance of 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Revelation 13:8b

</font>[/QUOTE]I gather that you see some irony in this - but it is escaping me at the moment.

In Christ,

Bob

 

No. My point is that Heb 11 shows a truly converted person - the real new birth - the real "new creation". This is the "ONE GOSPEL" of Gal 1:6-11 fully functioning in the OT.

(In response to the post I was addressing)

CANNOT - of its own. Then we agree.

But GOD IS ABLE to ENABLE that choice that TD disables --- to ENABLE choice - where that choice is to CHOOSE LIFE. "With the mouth we confess and with the heart we believe and the RESULT" is salvation - eternal life - the born again experience.

In Calvinism it is insisted that EVEN GOD can not ENABLE choice for a totally depraved sinner WITHOUT FIRST also making them entirely born again Christians PRE-faith, PRE-belief.

In the mind of the calvinist - Evangelists CALL THE SAVED to Christ. Because only the SAVED who are ALREADY Christians, ALREADY born again ALREADY saints - will respond.

This is not a method/belief/teaching of arminians -- or the Word of God.

In the model of Calinism


God must first change that nature - give a new heart - before man will repent and believe.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Still, the exceptions are significant enough, because it WAS a picture. When you say "saves the world"/"saves His people", this is true, but not preordained states of the people, and even those "exceptions" (as well as any in the "people" who didn't follow the rule and were slaughered) show this.

[infinity]/[infinity] is not necessarily infinity; any finite number will fit; once again, the eternity (infinity) of the duration would then equal the debt, and it would be paid, and then in some infinitely far time (conceivable, considering time may be different in the new Heavens, which we often call "eternity"), they would be saved. This idea would be better for a concept of purgatory.

His holiness is vindcated just by the removal of sin from His presence. What people owe God is to eternal service and worship, not that OR "suffering". HE is not getting that in those punished, but they are removed from His presence.

Based on things Calvinists themselves have said, though you may not put things that way.

Though we can't speculate too much, still, you could look at the commonly accepted view that the flame and other torment is the sensation of their own sin (lust, hatreds, guilt & shame, etc.), forever unfulfilled and perhaps magnified. They are separated (the "outer darkness") from God, the source of all things good. So what is there but misery? Like people are hurt by rejection,; imagine being rejected by the ultimate being in the universe (after finally seeing for sure that He was real after all!). In any case, as all of that would be the characteristic of the banishment, the banishment WOULD be the punishment.

That still renders meaningless the ide of it being better not to be born. If any are preordained to Hell, it would be better for any of them not tobe born, however much worse it may be for some than others. But if many people are in a position where they can still be saved, and some are in a hardened position where they for all purposes cannot, (and then are used for such a wicked role), then you would have a meaningful difference.

Still, God could choose any reprobate to be that one of his appointed band. It's not that God made him a reprobate to fulfill the purpose. That He in effect says "well, this person just won't have any chance to be saved because I need him for this purpose" (but come to find out all who for some reason are not chosen to be saved are in the same situation, just not quite as bad). That WOULD be "forcing" the person to do it. If you place a baby on a slide down into a pit, then you can say "well, it was just his own mass that pulled him in; I just let him go the way his nature gravitated", he was still forced into the pit.
No one is discussing "innocence". (though it is the Calvinists who insist these decisions are made before the person is born and did any sin). Just the idea of God shutting people out, as "non-innocent" as they may be.

No, you're confusing either someone who was a person of God who backslides, or those back then who were already pretty much following Christ, but were not yet "of the fold". Clearly, the definition of sheep is one who "hears His voice", currently, that is, not "all who will in the future". If they are not following His voice now, they do not fit the description of a sheep.