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Featured If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 25, 2017.

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Would Man have fallen?

  1. Most certainly

    0 vote(s)
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  2. No

    1 vote(s)
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  3. I don't know

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  4. It is impossible to know

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  5. I don't care

    0 vote(s)
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  6. He never ordained the Fall in the first place.

    4 vote(s)
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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Imiginary time!
     
    #181 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are still free to do what sinners can do, but cannot choose outside those boundaries!
     
    #182 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    This sort of thing:

    "God decreed the Fall but not Adam's sin"

    "God ordained Adam's sin, but didn't cause it"

    "God didn't give Adam enough grace to resist sinning, but he didn't decree Adam's sin, just decreed that Adam would Fall. This was also foreknown and predetermined."

    "Decreeing sin is different than ordaining it, which is different from God's permissive will."

    "Predetermining something is not decreeing it, it is ordaining it."

    "God created all men (which is a decree) and God knows who will be saved because he Elects them (which is a decree) but the men that go to Hell, God permits them that choice through free will (which is either ordained or foreknowledge, which may or may not be the same thing...but for certain, in this case at least it is not predestination, but it might be predetermination, unless it's not...)
     
    #183 InTheLight, Jan 26, 2017
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  4. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    You're missing my point. Any hypothetical alternative possibility would have to occur within space-time. Humans live and act in space-time.

    The magical "get God of jail free" card of appealing to being outside of time doesn't work when you are talking about human actions.
     
    #184 StefanM, Jan 26, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    No, there is no place where God says he "permits them to go to hell."

    The wages of sin is death.

    You and I are judged as sinners. We die. We go to hell...except by God choosing to pardon us because His wrath falls fully upon Jesus rather than upon us. Jesus atonement takes the Father's wrath so that it does not fall, rightly, upon us.

    This is biblical.

    What you present has no biblical merit. Nowhere is idea of permission presented. No, the reality is that Hell is our judgment by God's judicial decree. It is our just fate, unless God intervenes by grace and chooses to redeem us.
     
    #185 MennoSota, Jan 26, 2017
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, that's Edwards. I had to study that for a while before I saw the difference.

    To use another example saying the same thing:

    Some people (me and maybe one other guy somewhere in the world in living in his mother's basement) believe that God planned for Judas to betray Jesus. But the two of us also believe that God did not force Judas to sin (Judas sinned of his own free will, due to temptation that spoke to his lusts).

    So, the "double speak" that you see is that I believe God is omniscient and Creator, but also believe sin comes from within man.
     
    #186 JonC, Jan 26, 2017
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  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    And you don't see the contradiction?
     
    #187 InTheLight, Jan 26, 2017
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  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Why would you say that? When Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness. Of course I know Joshua didn't know Christ but he did know God. It was God that counted his faith as righteousness.

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    foolishness is is trying to follow God with out faith. When we serve God we are following God
    MB
     
    #188 MB, Jan 26, 2017
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I did. So you must be wrong. Scripture never says a man cannot choose to follow God That is nonsense.
    MB
     
    #189 MB, Jan 26, 2017
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, I don't.

    Another example is Joseph being sold into bondage. This is exactly the same with the addition of Scripture providing the "double speak" or contradiction. The act was purposed by the brothers as evil. Their act was sin. But God was behind the event, and that same act was "good" in His hands.

    There, as well, I see no contradiction. God purposed the event (to save Israel and "make her a people"). But to the brothers it was sin.
     
    #190 JonC, Jan 26, 2017
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  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The decree was the Law and God never made a law where Adam must fall.
    MB
     
    #191 MB, Jan 26, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You can decide to do this or not, an God knows what would happen either way!
    He also has a Will and Plan;n to make sure what actually gets done is what fits into tat plan/purpose!
     
    #192 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God decreed whre all sinners go who reject Jess, but he did not "force them" to reject Jesu!
     
    #193 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus said tht He chose us, not us Him, and that lost sinners choose to remainin darkness!
     
    #194 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Best example is the Cross....
     
    #195 Yeshua1, Jan 26, 2017
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except Paul tells us Adam's sin was a transgression as one transgresses the Law (his disobedience was to God's direct command, which carried the same condemnation... i.e., it was a law in the same sense).

    The more I think of it th greater my appreciation is towards you for bringing this point. Perhaps the "law" to Adam was just as covenantal as the Law of Moses. God gives a command to Adam while Adam is dwelling with God, the consequence of death for disobedience. God gives the commands to Israel, the promise of obedience as entering that land, and of disobedience, death. In both cases disobedience shows the difference between God's righteousness and man's.
     
    #196 JonC, Jan 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
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  17. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    All humans sin. We are guilty of breaking God's law. Our fate is hell by God's sovereign authority. Our only escape is by God's merciful grace given by his choice to whomsoever he wills. It's God's choice, not ours, to make.

    Left to our own devices we will always choose to rebel against God. Why? Because we have all gone astray. We are all filthy rags. We are rebels, just like ISIS, who plot our overthrow of the King. God laughs at our plans and mercifully chooses rebels to pardon and have his wrath fall on Jesus while leaving the other rebels to receive his wrath directly. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
     
    #197 MennoSota, Jan 26, 2017
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  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    What did Joshua tell the people in Chapter 24 vs 19, 20?

    No one claimed that Joshua was not saved by grace. All whom God has chosen to redeem, from Adam to the present moment, have been saved by God's grace, not by the law. That is what we can take away in Joshua 24 and throughout the entire Bible.

    Read Ephesians 2:1-10. You see that we cannot generate faith on our own power. God must give us faith as a gift. That's the only way to have faith. Thus, we can never choose to have faith and believe God unless God first chooses us.
     
    #198 MennoSota, Jan 26, 2017
  19. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Inconsistence
     
    #199 Agent47, Jan 26, 2017
  20. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    God is not responsible nor the author of what He infallibly decreed. Joke of the century.

    Replace the Fall with Light and try to argue that God did not create light; He just decreed light. Then somewhat there was light :Roflmao:Roflmaof

    Only by sheer force of will can one desperately cling to such glaring inconsistency to make 'sense' out of their beloved theories
     
    #200 Agent47, Jan 26, 2017
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