If Obama & Bush are Wormongers, What is God?

There is no doubt that God uses the evil of men to carry out His plans. Even the evil of war.

God allowed other nations to conquer Israel and to bring them into captivity. God then punished those very nations for the evil they had committed during those wars.

What we need to consider, IMHO, as Christians, is whether our allegience is first and foremost to the cause of Christ in this world or to the causes of this country in the world.

Quite frankly, they are not always, perhaps they never have been, the same.

peace to youraying:

 

Christ also commanded us to love those who persecute us... never repay evil for evil.. to exibit the perfect patience of Christ when we deal with the worst of sinners.

peace to youraying:

 

Yes, but he did not say we should not defend ourselves. I try to live at peace with all men, but if someone were to attack my family, I am going to do whatever it takes to stop them. I'll worry about it later. And not only my family, if I saw someone attacking a stranger, I would help them as well.

You can take this stuff too far. Back during Viet Nam hippies used to stick flowers in the gun barrels of National Guardsmen. Try that with these Muslim extemists, or with soldiers in countries like China and see where it gets you.



Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Yes, we are to live with all men in peace if possible. Trouble is, evil men make that impossible at times.

 

What do you suppose Jesus meant when He said in Matt. 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil: but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also."?

Both are separate issues from war.

Hippies sticking flowers in gun barrels has nothing to do with how Christians should view this issue.

But, it is clear from the context of Romans 12:18, that Christians are not to engage in violence. Even if the "peace" is only one-sided ("as much as lieth in you..."), we are still called to be peaceful.

The prior verse (17) says, "Never pay back evil for evil to anyone."

The very next verse (19) says, "never take your own revenge..."

So, even if Christians can't be at "peace" with evil men, the violence will only be coming from one direction.

peace to youraying:

 

Christ is commenting on personal, private offenses. He is not advocating anarchy.

Again, in normal, day-to-day circumstances, yes. But there is a time for war.

Correct. Going to war is the right thing to do if that's what's required to protect the innocent.

Correct as well, which is why civil magistrates are God's ministers to execute vengeance.

Only the bad violence. The good violence will be coming from the other direction.

 

The statement was that Jesus never told us not to defend ourselves. The passage addresses that issue directly.

."good violence"?

Perhaps you could show me the passage of scripture where Christians are told to engage in "good violence"?

peace to youraying:

 

A man who would not defend the orphans, widows or his own family at the hand of violence is worthless.

 

Recently, in my presence, a pastor was talking with a troubled young man who was very mixed up. The young man insisted if it wasn't in the four gospels, and particularly in the red words of Jesus.... then he didn't care what the Bible said. This pastor, in a passing remark, whether intended for me or not, said.... it can be dangerous to focus ONLY on the 4 gospels and ignore the rest of the Bible. It caused me great thought.

I maybe wrong in this and perhaps someone could address it better.... but Jesus indicated that all scripture.... all the words are important.... not just the ones he spoke. In fact, at the time of his visitation, the ONLY Scripture which existed was the Old Testament and he made frequent reference to it. At the time of his ministry, the message he preached was the Kingdom message through which he taught the discipline of the kingdom. He also presented himself as the Lamb of God, but even his disciples were confused by his preaching until after his death and resurrection. In a sense, he presented the kingdom message to the chosen people but it was not accepted.. We err when we confuse the Kingdom with him, with the kingdom which presently is. This does not mean that we disregard the teachings of the Kingdom and application to our lives.... but we do err if we think that this unrepentant and unregenerate world will accept His message and the values of the Kingdom before it is shaken with purging judgement and He comes to reign. The remainder of the New Testament completes the message of the Old Testament and the Four Gospels in showing us the exercise of faith and grace while living in a sinful world whos kingdoms are currently ruled by the dark forces of the air, the devil.

In one sense, His Kingdom is already here in the heart of each believer..... but it is not yet manifest.... and the warfare which we experience on the spiritual level is akin to but not the same as that which we experience in the temporal. If my understanding is correct.... it is important that we understand there is a distinct difference, while we live with one in our heart, we live and deal with the other on its own terms.... which is now leading us to choose between national socialism or marxist socialism, with few victories in between to encourage us. Warfare..... that fought with flesh and blood and weapons which kill are forces which are bringing down the economy, enslaving and corrupting our youth, devaluing the life of the unborn- the defective -the fraility of the old- devaluing the wisdom of those whos experience take them beyond the lessons of universities and the organization of societies, breaking up homes and nations, disposing of the properties of people, controlling or limiting the expression individuals talents and abiities, stealing the natural resources of the poor, poisoning our planet throught industrial waste and pollution of its waters and the land with permanant waste like depleted uranium, and changing the nature and nourishment of crops with genetic engineering and polluting through pollen transferr that which God made and was pure, and in other ways leading the world towards a goal of unified government, laws, religion, controls..... preparing it for the reign of antichrist.

 

I forgot where that verse of scripture is found. Could you point it out to me?

peace to youraying:

 

And what do you suppose he meant when he said to gouge your eye out if it causes you to sin? Do you take that literally?

What do you make of Judges 19 when the nation was prepared to go to war in response to the violence done to the woman in Gibeah? Did God approve or disapprove?

 

Well I agree. I was responding to Canady who (if I read him correctly) believes that defense, both at a personal level and a national level, is forbidden by scripture.

 

Yes, there are just wars.

Num 10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

Here God commanded Moses to make trumpets of silver, they were used for several purposes. But one of these was to call the men together for war if they were oppressed by an enemy. So, if you are invaded by a people who is trying to take your country over, you have a just reason to fight and war against them.

Num 26:1 And it came to pass after the plague, that the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, saying,
2 Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, from twenty years old and upward, throughout their fathers' house, all that are able to go to war in Israel.

Here is a draft. God commanded Moses and Aaron to number all the men from age twenty upward that were able to go to war. Why would God do that if war is always forbidden?

Num 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

Here God commanded the Israelites to go to war. So war is not forbidden under just causes. Defending your homeland against people that would attack and kill you is just.

 

As an individual we are prohibited from individually taking revenge against someone who does us wrong. Taking revenge and defending another, and to some extent one's self, are completely different acts. A man, for example, has a clear duty to protect his wife and children.

Civil government, on the other hand, has a duty defined by God in His word to carry out justice for the individual and the nation as a whole. It is not limited by the same prohibition and, in fact, is required to execute justice. If it does not then it tempts the individual to do on their own behalf.

The root of all war is the sinful nature of man but, given this fact, it is necessary for a nation to protect its citizens from others and, if there cause is just, there is nothing evil about doing that. The enemies of good bear the responsibility for the evil of war.