If there had been debate board in the 1st Century, what would be their HOT issue?

You can attempt to undermine my premise all day, but unless you offer a better one, my stands as more likely than yours, because you don't have one.

If I said, "That car is red." And you say, "No its not." The natural response is to ask, "What color do you think it is?" But by saying, "I don't have to prove my premise," it just makes you seem unstable and unsound in your objection.

Yes, I would assume that if you disagree with how someone interprets a text that they have a better interpretation, that is most certainly not unreasonable in a debate forum. To suggest that it is unreasonable is absurd and an obvious diversion ploy.

Plus, I did deal with your accusations, you just didn't like the way I dealt with them. That's your problem, not mine.

This is just an overreaction to a silly comment. That is why we have those cute little faces to show that we are just kidding. Lighten up, we are just having fun here.

 

Bible-Belted, or should I call you "Avoid the Bible-belted"

I'm not going to waist my time with you anymore. You have not demonstrated in any way shape or form that my interpretation is not a valid option. Do you really think quoting the general overall purposes of the book of Thess. from the NIV study bible is sufficient to prove that the author could not have been refering to the Gentiles in the passage in question? That is the most ridiculous and absurd logic I have heard sense I've been on this board.

Then on top of that your not even willing to offer an interpretation of your own. If you don't want to debate don't get on a debate board. I'm not going to waist my time with you any longer, it's not worth it.

 

The evidence is:
1. This was a major issue of that day.
2. Israel is spoken of throughout the scripture as being given a delusion as spoken of in verses 10-12.
3. The fact that most believers in Thessolanica are Gentiles.
4. It was well known that Israel was God's chosen people, but it was news that the Gentiles were also chosen by God, which is why Paul emphasizes this continually.

Your evidence was quoting the general purposes of the author in writing Thess.

These purposes were so general that they wouldn't have included my interpretation of this text or your interpretation if you had bothered to present one. This is why I was asking you to give your interpretation. I wanted you to see that Leon Morris' overview outline didn't support the Calvinistic view either, thus it was NOT RELEVANT and most assuredly didn't refute my premise as you assumed it did.

Why do I need to defend an argument that also would "refute" your interpretation if you ever presented one? In fact, any interpretation offered that didn't fall within Leon Morris' overview would have to be dismissed if we all debated by your standands.

Refute what? No substance is hard to refute. You have only listed purposes that are so general no interpretation would fit and declare that my premise falls because of those purposes, yet the typical Calvinistic interpretaton wouldn't fit under these purposes either, so I guess by your standard there is no right interpretation?????

You say that to me after what you have done on this thread?

 

How do you arrive at the conclusion that 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 is talking about Israel?. The words "Israel" or "Jews", etc., are not mentioned in the whole chapter. </font>[/QUOTE]Kinda like the words "faith" and "man's inability" aren't in the verses you use to support man's inability to have faith?

Israel is spoken of as being sent a delusion in other parts of scripture. I use scripture to interpret scripture. You should try it sometime.

 

This letter was written to a predominately Gentile church. And you would have the letter talking about Israel and ignoring the Gentiles.

How silly, and false. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, you are embarrassing yourself. Go back and actually read my argument please. I never said it was talking about Israel and ignoring the Gentiles. I said that Paul was thanking God for choosing the Gentiles. Until the coming of Christ, Israel was the only group known to be chosen by God. Now the Gentiles were also chosen to which Paul was expressing his thanks.

 

You don't think the fact that God has just revealed the mystery of his choosing to ingraft the Gentiles in as apart of his covenant people is significant to a letter written to a predominately Gentile church by Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, which says I thank God for choosing you. That's funny.

Again, let me remind you that the "themes" of the letter that you presented are so general that they also would not contain a Calvinistic interpretation of this text either, therefore your point is completely invalid. If you were honest enough to present an interpretation of your own you would see this. (Maybe that's why you won't present an interpretation of your own, because you know that your interpretation wouldn't fall under any of Leon's themes either. )

The verse says "among those who are perishing". And it also tells us specifically why they are perishing and its not because they weren't chosen, it's because they refused to believe the truth that God chose to show them and God sent them a delusion.

Nothing to do with them? The hardening of the Israelites is what allowed for their being ingrafted. Read Romans 11 again. And how does Paul thanking God for their being chosen not have to do with them? You are not making any sense here.

I have provided evidence of my interpretation, you on the other hand have not even provided an interpretation. You simply list some general themes to which no interpretation of this specific text would fall under. You know that, so you continue to avoid presenting your own interpretation. I will continue to hold you accountable on that point, unless of course you can provide an interpretation of this text that clearly is represented by Leon Morris' themes. Good luck, your going to need it.

The reason I laugh is because YOU, the one who won't even participate in providing his own interpretation of this context, is telling me that I ignore the context. That is funny to me. It's kinda like the Hollywood idiots that condemn George W. Bush's plan but don't have a better one, they just condemn it because it's his plan.

This part really made me double over laughing. My sides are sore. stop it you're killing me...

Ok, if you can't see how the mystery of the Gentiles being chosen to enter into the Covenant of God, which is revealed for the first time in all of history, is relevant to a letter written by Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, to a group of Gentiles believers thanking God for their being Chosen, then there is no hope for us having any kind of honest or productive discussion.

But if you insist on some more support, you can look at this passage from Paul's first letter to the church in Thessolanica:

1 Thess. 2:13: Also, this is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the message about God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the message of God, which also works effectively in you believers. 14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, since you have also suffered the same things from people of your own country, just as they did from the Jews. 15 They killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and persecuted us; they displease God, and are hostile to everyone, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. As a result, they are always adding to the number of their sins, and wrath has overtaken them completely.

If that doesn't convince you that the issue of Jews/Gentiles was a major issue to this church and a concern expressed in Paul's writings nothing will.

Notice what I hightlighted for you. He is apparently addressing Gentiles while thanking God that they recieved their message as being from the Lord. How do we know because of the quote, "since you have also suffered the same things from people of your own country, just as they did from the Jews"

This passages parallels the passage in 2 Thess. perfectly as Paul thanks God for their being chosen just as he thanks God for their receiving of the message in this letter.

Verse 15-16 seals it: They killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and persecuted us; they displease God, and are hostile to everyone, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. As a result, they are always adding to the number of their sins, and wrath has overtaken them completely.

Who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets? Jews
Who persecuted the apostles? Jews
Who hindered the apostles from preaching to the Gentiles? Jews
Who is always adding to the wrath that has overtaken them? Jews

But in contrast who is Paul thankful to God for recieving their message? The Gentiles, for Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and is being beaten and imprisoned by his own people the Jews. I think that may have played a role in his choice of words. To ignore that is not only poor hermeneutics, but it is plain stubborn blindness, I know because it once consumed me when I didn't want to face the reality that Calvinism was unfounded.

I pray it won't continue to consume you.