if total depravity is, then how are the non-elects responsible?

This is certainly true. The invitation is given to all but only those who "will" come are given eternal life. They "will" come only because the Father gives it to them to come. The rest "will not" come and therefore do not have eternal life.</font>[/QUOTE]Since it is well known that your position is that because man sinned in the Garden, that man is left destitute of all that God created man to be. The scriptures do not support that position, because all through the scriptures man continues to be given choices to make for himself. One who is destitute in the manner that your position describes, cannot choose! So what is the point of giving man choices? What is the point of "going into all the world making disciples...", If God alone chooses who the elect are?

My position is that Man sinned in the garden, the sin is disobedience of God's command. Beside disobeying God, the sin involved eating of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Please note that it does not say the tree of the knowledge of evil, but rather "good" and "evil". So Man was not made either evil or good, but man now has the inherent knowledge that what he does is either evil or good. Again, please note that "knowledge of good and evil" does not make one either good or evil.

Man by his own choices, and because evil seems to be more fun or stimulating than good, chooses to do evil. That does not mean that man has no power to choose good, but rather that man chooses evil because it is more attractive to him, more "risky" and exciting. So the old adage applies that says, "opposites attract". I say that, because God made man Good, HE SAID SO, but man chooses to do evil. You say that man is totally depraved, God did not say that about every man, but only to those who, by their own choices, have become totally depraved. Not nearly all men have, and as long as the Holy Spirit prevails as the restrainer, not all men will! Even then there will be "a remnant" that are not influenced to evil.

There is scripture where Jesus tells his disciples that every one will go his own way, even after believing. Does that not imply that man has a will and the ability to choose? To me it does.

The prophet Isaiah, speaking of Jesus tells us that all have gone their own way, having a mind of their own under their own control and that Jesus has taken all of their transgressions upon himself, and doing it without complaining

Then Paul, along with Barnabas also confirms that man has the power to choose of their own free will

It is the "Good News delivered" that is to persuade the people away from their sinfulness into belief in Jesus (God) and Righteousness (good). Persuasion requires the ability to hear, and to choose for one's self. Paul knew that, why don't you! And Paul was not preaching to the "elect" but to people in general. It was up to the people to choose for themselves.

The Truth is that as Jesus told Nicodemus, the Holy Spirit like all spirit goes hither and yon and we do not know where it is from or where it is going. I do not doubt that the Holy Spirit visits all men at least once in their life, but more likely, rather constantly until man is either persuaded or completely rejects the Gospel. I am convinced that even after one is old in age, perhaps having accepted and fallen away, can return as the prodigal and receive a "father's welcome home". But I am also certain that one doing so, never blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

 

We can only "make" disciples of those of whom God draws to Himself through His Son by the Holy Spirit. All others will not be REAL disciples.

Yelsew, this tells us that men after believing have that coveted choice you espouse; all others do not.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew, this tells us that men after believing have that coveted choice you espouse; all others do not.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]You certainly cannot make that declaration for all mankind! It is quite clear throughout history that man has been choosing for himself, whether right or wrong choices, man has been choosing and will continue to choose til the end of time. Your declarations do not change that fact!

You cannot declare that only those whom God brings are the only ones who will hear the word and believe in Jesus. I have yet to see a scripture posted that, in its context, supports that point of view.

In the absence of supporting scriptures, all you have is belief in what Calvin said. Show us all what Jesus said about "only those the father brings me..." Show us all in the scripture where is says that "ONLY those" can come. Show us where all others are excluded! Show is in the scriptures exactly who "the elect" are.

Here's the deal:

1. Does Jesus say that only the elect can or will come to belief in HIM?

2. Does Jesus say that ONLY "the elect" receive salvation?

3. Does Jesus say that NONE but the elect can hear the call of God?

If the answer is Yes, Post the scripture in all of its context.

If the answer is NO, you have a decision to make...a choice!

 

a more accurate approach in saying this maybe: "the rest "will not" come because they were born with the inability to come, plus the nature to sin, either of which they had regardless of their volition, and therefore they do not have eternal life. nevertheless they are responsible, at least in an incomplete analysis. </font>[/QUOTE]Aki, False doctrine by any other name remains false doctrine.

 

Yelsew,

I commented on your earlier post in which I read the word "after" in context of your post you said that those believing would be able to go their way "after" believing, and then you attempted to imply those not believing were in the same position...there is the stretch brother. You nor I can neither make an apple pie out of peaches, either the pie is peach because it is made of peaches or it is apple because it is made of apple.

In other words, if you are saved and I am not, it is because you were elected before the foundation of the world and Christ stood at that time as the Lamb slain and covenanted with the Father to come into the world in time and to fulfill that covenant of works which only He could fulfill and thereby redeem you and all the elect from the bondage of sin. This is complete because Christ was obedient. Myself then not being of the elect will never be able to enjoy that position at any time presently nor in the future.

To attempt to make a non-believer in the same position as a believer is the very reason why I reject your teaching. It is nothing personal, I just can't buy what you are selling. When Christ said No man can come to me except the Father draw him, then He made the distinction and not me. When He said Ye will not come, then He made the distinction not me. When He said there would be some who would do good works in His name but He would command them to depart from Him He never Knew them, He did not say you never believed, but He said "I never Knew you"

The Word of God makes these distinctions, not me, not Calvin, not any other man.

Bro Dallas

 

And who did God elect? The Jews! God's chosen people! From the earliest records.

And What did Jesus do? Opened the door for whosoever believeth...!

Why? Because God's elect became a sinful lot! So God opened the door to any who would hear and believe and become, through confession and repentance from sin, the Righteous people that God's elect would not be.

We are all from the gentiles, we are all the whosoever believeth... We are those who heard the Gospel and believe and as such we shall have eternal life.

There are many of the elect which the Father is giving to Jesus, we know them as "completed Jews".

 

Aki, your thread deals with "Total Depravity" a concept or doctrine that remains to be proven. There is much evidence that total depravity does not exist. Even the totality of depravity does not exist except in a portion of the population.

If depravity among men had been total at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, God would not have stopped with Sodom and Gomorrah, he would have destroyed the totality of mankind for being what he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for being.

Therefore if you are attempting to determine who among mankind is responsible under the concept of total depravity, you must first prove total depravity exists. That has not been done on this BBS nor on any others where I post.

Total depravity of mankind, the whole essence of man, is an invention of man!

 

Hello Yelsew,

I have been gone a while and it is good to see your voice ( ) again. Unfortunately you still don't understand the condition of mankind.

Bro. Dallas

 

These seem to be reasonable definitions of the two words. When used together their meaning does not change.

 

My understanding of a concept that has no definition is not what is important here. You Calvinists have the onus on you to prove the concept in the language of those you are attempting to convince.

If you can't explain it in the language of the persons you are attempting to sell it to, you ain't gonna sell it! The onus is not on the hearer, but rather on the teller to do the communicating. You ain't communicating regarding total depravity!

You are the one with the concept, it is your responsibility to sell the concept, so far you have failed! It is not my responsibility to understand, because I will not understand in accordance with the terms you use. IT IS THAT SIMPLE! Those terms have common definitions that the English speaking world understands. I understand those terms as the English speaking world understands them, not as Calvin meant them to be. Total depravity is not a biblical concept either.

You have given me nothing to entice me to get into Calvinism and Total Depravity.

Now dear AKI, It is not I that is teaching false doctrine, it is not I who is Totally depraved, nor have I ever been totally depraved! Total Depravity is your belief, you cannot communicate your belief in a manner that would make me or anyone else want to pursue it, so the problem is yours...deal with it!

 

But you seem to be unaware that you are not the determiner of false doctrine; Scripture is. What I have said cannot be false becasue it is what Scripture says. What you have said cannot be true because it is not what Scripture says. Some often fall into the trap of asserting our own personal beliefs as truth because they make sense to that person. You have done this. You have decided what it is you will believe and in the process have shown that Scripture has no meaning to you. In the final analysis, your teaching will be incorrect until you align it with Scripture.

 

But you seem to be unaware that you are not the determiner of false doctrine; Scripture is. What I have said cannot be false becasue it is what Scripture says. What you have said cannot be true because it is not what Scripture says. Some often fall into the trap of asserting our own personal beliefs as truth because they make sense to that person. You have done this. You have decided what it is you will believe and in the process have shown that Scripture has no meaning to you. In the final analysis, your teaching will be incorrect until you align it with Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you Pastor Larry, Your admission that someone can and does determine for themselves what to believe and what not to believe, completely destroys your premise that man cannot do that. I have given you a prime example of it happening and you recognizing it! So lets not hear another word about the "inability of man"

As for what I believe, You have not proven it false as I have your "total depravity" doctrine.

 

AKI, if the terms used to define the concept leave one with a false sense of what the concept is, how is it possible to discuss it?

I'll assume that "total depravity" exists, and I'll also assume that is it a bad thing for mankind. I'll also assume that "Total Depravity" is somewhat of a "law of God". Therefore, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

It matters not that man does not know he is totally depraved, the "law" says that he is. But there is an exception to the rule and it is this nebulous category of persons who are called "the elect" who are exempt from the "law". These are made exempt from before the establishment of the "law".

So, since ignorance of the law is no excuse, all mankind is guilty of violating the "law", and therefore they are each and every one of them, responsible for their own fate. ALL, that is, exept for "the elect" who are "above the law" through "predetermination".

That false doctrine fits very nicely into our current society where "the elect" of our society are exempt from obeying every jot and tittle of the law because the inforcers of the law look the other way when an "elect" is involved. It also implies a favoritism on the part of the law giver.

 

Thank you Pastor Larry, Your admission that someone can and does determine for themselves what to believe and what not to believe, completely destroys your premise that man cannot do that. I have given you a prime example of it happening and you recognizing it! So lets not hear another word about the "inability of man" [/quote][/qb]I never said that man cannot determine for himself what to believe. To make that charge is simply dishonest, but it is apparently the only way you have to make your case. You cannot refute me on the facts of the case; you must impute certain beliefs to me without merit, so that you can destroy your straw men.

My point was that truth is determined by Scripture. Scripture supports what I have said. It teaches it in explicit terms. You have denied what Scripture teaches in explicit terms. That makes your belief false.

Now, Aki is appealing for his thread to get back on track with respect to responbility. If you wish to further discuss something else, start your own thread. Return this one to responsibility.

The "how" question is answered by saying that God said it was so. Therefore it is so. This is essentially what I said in teh beginning. What other kind of answer are you looking for??

 

Post edited for being off topic, in spite of just being told to start your own topic if you wish to comment on that particular topic.

[ September 06, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]