If you believe you can lose your salvation, are you really saved?

Baptist In Richmond:
I John 1:7 requires one to walk in the light. If he does, he is cleansed from all sin. Verse 8 teaches us that if we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not in us. The application is clear, Christians, those who walk with Christ do sin. However, if they confess and repent the blood of Christ cleanses them from those sins. The need for repentance is required by Luke 13:3,5, Acts 17:30.

Moreover, all the conditions of salvation are not given in one verse of scripture. Many times the writers of the divine will of God used synechdoche. A term that simply means a part representing the whole and the whole for it's parts.
Simon the sorcerer of Acts 8:12-24 would be an example of the application of I John 1:7.

 

Originally posted by Frank:
>>I John 1:7 requires one to walk in the light. If he does, he is cleansed
>>from all sin. Verse 8 teaches us that if we say we have no sin we lie and the
>>truth is not in us. The application is clear, Christians, those
>>who walk with Christ do sin. However, if they confess and repent the blood of Christ cleanses
>>them from those sins. The need for repentance is required by Luke 13:3,5, Acts 17:30.

You and I are in complete agreement with respect to this point.

>>Moreover, all the conditions of salvation are not given in one verse of scripture.
>>Many times the writers of the divine will of God used synechdoche.

Could you provide an example for us?

 

Baptist In Richmond:
There are several examples of synecdoche in the Bible. Note the following:
1. John 8:24. Belief only in mentioned.
2. Luke 13:3. Repentance only is mentioned.
3. I John 4:2. Confession only is mentioned.
4. I Peter 3:21. Baptism only is mentioned.
5. Rev 1:5 the blood only is mentioned.
I can take each of these individual passages and exclude all of the others that proclaim other conditions are essential for salvation. However, by synecdoche and the totality of the evidence( the conversions in Acts 2:38-47; 8:12-14; 30-40; 10,11; 16:12-16; 30-33; 18:8; 19:1-6; 22:16, Gal. 3:26-29,Col. 2:12,13). I can know all of these things are essential for salvation. The Bible says so!

 

But if you look at the whole, you will determine that Faith alone is what saves. The rest are what those with faith do!

The unbeliever will not:
Repent!
Confess!
Be Baptised in the spirit!
Accept Jesus Atonement for sin!
Be converted.
Gather with other believers and Praise God.

Once one believes, has faith one will do all of those things. Even so, there are those who live among the saved who are not saved, but simply learn and go through the motions. Maybe at some point, They will have their spiritual eyes opened and truly believe unto salvation. But then again, maybe not, maybe they simply will not hear the truth. You can't get saved by being in the vicinity of the saved.

 

Yelsew:

If one has BIBLICAL belief he will submit to all the essentials to the saving of his soul. If one does not have BIBLICAL belief, he will not submit to all that God requires of him. However, Biblical belief requires obedience. John 3:36. One may confess Christ but refuse to repent. As you have well said, he is in the vicinity, but he is not saved! It is worthy to note the only time the word only is used in reference to faith in the new testament it is preceeded by the phrase not by faith... ONLY! James 2:24.

 

While you are pointing our what James said, let me point out what Jesus, the Son of God said, Jesus says in John 3:18 that those who believe are not judged, but those who do not believe are Judged already.There is nothing other than lack of faith that causes one to be cast into the Lake of Fire, because those with faith are not judged!

Jesus atoned for our sins, and Works have been tested, leaving only FAITH, or FAITH ALONE as the determining factor.

No where in scripture does it say that Salvation is a matter of believing plus doing good works, or believing and being "elect". But God the Son, Himself declares that those who believe in the Son of God, the Messiah are not Judged, but those who do not believe are already judged by their unbelief. Scripture cannot make it more clear than the words of The Christ.

One's Works are evidence of one's Faith, though they are not themselves Faith!
Non-Repentance from sin is evidence of lack of Faith.
Thus those who have faith do the works of faith while those without faith do the works of non-repentance, regardless of what they say.

 

So you are saying that apples are not an apple tree. That is kind of obvious.

It seems that you are arguing over words, not the message.

 

Hi b's and s's. The little heretic is back with good news.

“Behold I bring you glad tidings of great joy to all men who have the wisdom to make the right choices - everyone else will go to hell.” That’s bad news to me. The Church has failed to preach the real gospel – the good news of glad tidings of great joy to all men.

It is NOT YOUR faith that saves. It is HIS (Jesus’) faith and HIS work that came about on the mount at Golgotha as a result of that faith which “pays the price” for the salvation of “the world.” (any faith you may CHOOSE to have is a work by any other name. You may argue that it is NOT a work, but if you earn merit for YOUR faith, then it is no different than any other meritorious work. And that is a fact.) Note:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is NO DIFFERENCE.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ…….

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: By grace (a free gift) you are saved, through HIS faith. And by the same token any faith you may have (some have more, some less, some none… and we can’t make it happen by any effort of will) is purely a gift of God. Salvation by Christ is NOT from endless punishment. The doctrines of hell and eternal damnation are of pagan origin. And men who wanted to control the masses have mistranslated the Holy Scriptures to fit these evil doctrines.

If endless punishment really is the penalty of God under the Gospel and Christ came to save us from this, couldn’t we expect to have this fact announced from the beginning? Wouldn’t God be clear on this punishment of eternal damnation?
Luke 4:16-22. Christ Himself says at the opening of His ministry, of what He was sent into the world for, and if the great purpose of His coming were to save men from endless misery, wouldn’t He say so. "The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the Gospel (good tidings) to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, and to set at liberty them that are bruised, and to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister (of the synagogue), and sat down." No mention of His being sent to save from a future endless damnation in hell; If the doctrine of eternal damnation is true, Jesus is pretty silent about it - just when He should have clearly declared it. And isn’t it interesting that Jesus leaves out a most important expression: "the day of vengeance of our God." He reads down to these words, and then stops short in the middle of the sentence, closes the book, and sits down. Isn’t it significant that He should leave this portion out of His declaration of His mission?

"God, having raised up his son Jesus, sent him to bless you," - Peter tells the murderers of Jesus (and if the purpose for which God raised up Jesus and sent Him into the world is to save us from endless punishment maybe now we would hear it). No Peter says "He sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Wouldn’t this be a great time for revealing the doctrine of endless torment? "He gave himself for us, that he might redeem us" - from all iniquity." Titus 2:11-14. "Our Lord Jesus who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from" - a future evil world? No He delivers us "FROM THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD!" Gal. I 4.

"Thou shall call his name JESUS, for he shall save his people from their sins." Matt. 1. 21 He shall save them from sin, not from the vengeance of God, or the penalty of the divine law, or the horrors of endless punishment.

Now for a very interesting word study. As you look into the word "wrath", especially when Jesus used the word, do a search (yes, even in a Strong's Concordance) and find Strong's # 3709.
3709 orge or-gay' from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. see GREEK for 3713

What I find so very interesting is that "properly" this word means, "desire" (and perhaps a very strong desire). Now look to its root word:

3713 oregomai or-eg'-om-ahee middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary (compare 3735); to stretch oneself, i.e. reach out after (long for):--covet after, desire. see GREEK for 3735

The root word means to "reach out after" or to "long for". What we have here is something that really has nothing to do with anger and retribution, much less any eternal punishment. This "wrath" is an immensely strong desire or "strongly longing for". I wonder what God really, strongly desires or "longs for"?

He who has faith in the Son has eternal life; but he who has not faith in the Son will not see life; God's wrath is resting on him. (John 3:36)
Those that have faith in Him will "know the Father and the Son, whom the Father sent", but those that don't will not know them and God's very strong desire is upon them.

Isn't strange to you that a word description contains things like "properly (means) thus and so", but then tries to tell us what is "implied". Well, whose implication is it, God's or the translator's?

Yes, I see God's "wrath" in Scripture, but is it forever and ever; or is it even the "anger" that preachers want to control the masses with?

God isn’t angry. He is standing over you with JOY. His love covers a multitude of sins. His mercy triumphs over judgment. He is compassionate, slow to anger and loves with an enduring love. This is the Good News: God is reconciling the world to Himself and not counting men’s sins against them through Jesus Christ His Son, our Lord and Savior. \o/

Diane

 

So you are saying that apples are not an apple tree. That is kind of obvious.

It seems that you are arguing over words, not the message. </font>[/QUOTE]When you pick one phrase out you can make it say anything you want. I have consistantly spoken of the message!

 

GH said,

Excuse me, but when has God ever needed faith? Jesus was faithful to the FATHER, He did not demonstrate FAITH, but rather obedience! He knew the Father and was of the Father, Faith is something that Deity does not need! However, we, the Created ones, require faith because we do not know!

Faith is not a work, it requires none of the attributes of "work" to exist!

Faith in God is a human condition, not a human production!

Works are a product of effort expended, and not a condition that exists!

Your definition fails the test!

 

Your definition fails the test!

Hmmmm so that means God didn't have to suffer to learn obedience either?

He didn't fail by ANYONE'S definition.

GH

 

Jesus came to be among us, to teach us and to sacrifice Himself for us. Obviously He did not fail. He did not need to learn Obedience or faith He was Deity among man.

What I did say is that YOUR definition Fails the tests. To remind you, I quote your definition

 

Yelsew,,

Just WHAT Are you implying here ?

if we are dead in christ. then we live by "his" faith..

we are within his spirit.."the faith" that he lived and died with.
we have full knowledge, wisdom, fruits..in the spirit..we just havent recognized it yet

we are dead IN christ. Yet alive to God through the faith of Christ.

what the bible speaks of faith that we possess is simply the recognition of the understanding of Christs spirit within us and its operation BY faith.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

a simple statement...notice, "the faith"

Me2

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[ June 30, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

In what or whom does the Son of God need to have faith? "Faith is the substance hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" What is it that Jesus the son of God would hope for? What is it that the Son of God could not see?

At any moment of his incarnated life Jesus could have Called 10,000 angels who would have instantly come to his aid. He was Transfigured, He spoke directly to and through the Power of Almighty God because he is Almighty God as one of the triune Godhead.

He directed a school of fish into the nets of those who would be his Apostles, He took some loaves of bread and a couple fish and fed 5,000 with them.

Do you get the picture? Jesus was no ordinary man needing to have faith in something. He is the source or our faith, thus when scriptures say "the faith of Jesus" it is not saying that Jesus had faith, but that we have faith in Him, or of Him.

I hardly think it is the faith of Christ that makes us alive to God, it is our faith IN Christ that makes us alive to God. It by our faith that we live and walk and not by our sight! That is because of WHO and WHAT Jesus is, not because of what Jesus believed (had faith in).

Christ's spirit within us is there because of our faith, not because of the Christ's spirit's faith. Again, the Christ is the Christ who does not require faith! Man requires faith and the Christ is the object of man's faith!

The use of "the Faith" indicates a collective of people believing the same thing! The Faith was the Commonly held beliefs of a group or many widely dissiminated groups of people. Christianity is "the Faith", Baptism is a tenet of "the Faith".

Dead with Christ means "dead to self, while being alive unto Christ. Christ living in Us. We do not have Christ's Physical presence in any form but other Christ-ians, people alive in Christ. Therefore, when we believe in Him and act on our belief, we are "little Christs" because others see Christ through us.

Because we have faith in the Christ, and because we believe that Jesus died once to atone for ALL the sins of the world, we too should die to sin, that is, repent from sinning, make ourselves as if we are dead to sin. Sin cannot harm those who are dead to it, for the wage paid for sin is death. But if already dead to sin, sin has no dominion over us. We can then be alive to ALL that Christ Jesus is.

Me2, Your questioning is very refreshing, and I hope that my response has been helpful to you.

 

Thanks for such a quick reply.
I am not sure if I follow you here. If I recall, synecdoche refers to substituting the part for the whole, or vice versa. I have never seen it applied to include multiple messengers (i.e. John, Luke, Peter and Paul). Why would part of the message be revealed to the Galatians, while another part of the message be revealed to the Church at Corinth?

Thank you for citing Biblical Support for your argument. You cited several Passages; therefore, I have some homework for tonight.

Hope this post finds you well.

 

Hi Me2, NICE post to Yelsew. GH

 

GH,
And Where does one obtain faith?

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." The source of faith is the Word of God.

Now how does one "Hear" the word of God? First and formost, by opening the Holy Scriptures and reading the words contained therein so that the mind and spirit can hear the message those words contain. Second, by listening with one's auditory capacities when and while another speaks the words from the Holy Scriptures. Third, by conversing with others regarding the words of the Holy Scriptures. Forth, by hearing the words of the Holy Scriptures in the form or song. Fifth, by means of multimedia production of the words of the Holy Scripture brought to life on the screen.

I could go on and list a whole bunch of others including a deck of 52 playing cards. But the point is, Jesus is not walking among us to teach his Words that bring us to faith in Him.

The Holy Spirit is present in every case where two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus, and every time the Holy Scriptures are being read in earnest. The Holy Spirit "quickens" the Word of God in us. But we, each individual, must be persuaded, convinced, have one's mind changed, else we will not have faith!

God provided all the reasons for us to have faith, and the means whereby we can change our mind out of our own choice, but if we reject those reasons, we do not have faith. Faith cannot be forced upon the human psyche from an 'outside the human' source. Faith must come from within based upon that which is given from without.

That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to "go, make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" Making disciples is done by persuasion, convincing others to believe as you do. Being a disciple is adhering to the teachings of another. Baptising means "to emmerse them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". (Yes, there are other meanings too!)

The point is Faith cometh by "hearing", and not by divine 'dumping' or 'forcing'. One's Faith is the result of being per persuaded that what was heard is true and applies to the one.

Human faith in God, it a spiritual condition of the human, not of God.

 

GH, I want to address this thought separately,

What is your definition of FAITH? Is your definition consistent with how the scripture defines FAITH? Do you agree that "FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"? Then please tell us how God would use FAITH. Tell us what God hopes for, and describe what it is that God cannot see.

You see, Faith is not an attribute (something true of) of God. There is no reason for God to have or need faith.

Faith is not a commodity that God goes around handing out to those who hear his word either. Human faith in God is, by all means, the result of knowledge and inspiration provided by God for man to "consume". That is, for man to take into his psyche and mental processor and to make a part of his humanity to counter the influence of evil upon the human. Faith is the condition of the human by which he will be judged. If he hath not faith, he is cast into the lake of fire. Virtually every human being has the capability to have or develope faith in God on the basis of what God reveals to the man through His Word.

God established that ALL men are sinners.
God established that the Atonement made by Jesus covers ALL the sins of the World.
God made ALL men with the capability to believe and thus have FAITH in Him.
God established that WHOSOEVER believeth on his Son shall have everlasting life.
God established that ALL men die once, then are judged.
God established that Salvation is not of works, because He knew that man would boast of his own effort.

Well, ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, but God atoned for ALL of man's Sins. Therefore Sins are not held against us when we die and get judged. God told us that SALVATION is not by human effort, lest we boast, but instead gave us the capacity to have faith in Him. So with sins not a factor in Judgment, and Works not a factor in Judgment, just what is a factor in judgment? Jesus answered that in John 3:18 that whosoever believeth in Him is not judged, but whosoever believeth not is judged already.

Finally, What is it that God provides to us? GRACE! "For by grace, are ye saved through faith and, not of yourselves it (salvation) is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast."

God behaves toward us in accordance with HIS GRACE, so that 'through our faith we are saved'. Faith is not a work, or it would have been included in "not of works". 'Not of works' means 'man's expended effort' because man would boast about achieving Salvation by his own effort, and not as something that God gives us for having faith in HIM. God is 'self constrained' by His grace, so that he does not mete out his justice upon us for our sins.

 

Hi Yelsew,

It appears we have some mis-communications concerning the definitions of faith. I think it would be a great idea to start a fresh thread on What is faith and how do we come by it....
for instance..

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

no boasting of anything..even thinking and choosing

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

wisdom of men, didnt man write the bible, preach, i mean..interpret..and write commentaries, and...


1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

just by these scriptures mentioned..we see grace is through faith. that it is of God and not men. and that it is a gift of the Holy spirit.

it is not of our powers, yeslew..it is all of God.
the wisdom, the understanding, the method of delivery..and the capability of accepting,
all that God gives man.

the delivery system is of God..Faith.

he states..we accept.now go further with that idea..
does he speak to our mind. no. he speaks to our spirit..oops, I mean his spirit. yes, he's speaking to himself. and we're listening in over his shoulder. If he is God, and he doesnt Lie. then everything should be accepted as truth, right?

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

some dont believe he's God, nor sovereign, nor loves, nor forgives, etc.etc.etc. now we see whats stopping up our ears from simply accepting the basic truths as we listen over his shoulder.

denying truth can be described as lack of faith.
we're stopping the delivery of truth from occurring due to our choices of our will.

we do nothing but accept freely,..or refuse (gulp).

Hi GH

Me2