If your faith is a work then what?

Your argument fails on two points. First, Paul is speaking to believers only here.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

So Paul is speaking to believers only here. And he is speaking of spiritual gifts. Some have the gift of prophesy, some ministry, some teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, mercy....

So, this is not speaking of salvation whatsoever.

And if it were (which it is not), your argument would still fail because it says God has given faith to "every man". Therefore all would be saved if Calvinism is true.

 

Interesting that you are willing to defend your position by stating that "every man" is not speaking universally, but to believers (the elect), but when a Calvinist used the same argument with regards to the atonement, you won't accept it. As I say ... interesting.

By the way, I do believe the verse here is dealing with believers. But that still doesn't help your argument. Because faith was dealt (distributed) to them by God! So when exactly DID God give them their faith? And, if He gave them their faith BEFORE regeneration, (as you believe), then how can it be THEIR faith - a faith that originated from within themselves without the active 'giving' of God? It can't.

 

I believe all men have faith whether saved or lost. But the Bible shows that the lost place their trust in that which cannot save them.

Isa 42:17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

The Bible shows men have faith and trust in false gods. And some trust in themselves that they are righteous.

Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

MANY trust in riches.

Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

It is Calvinism that teaches faith is some sort of supernatural force. I do not see that in scripture. I see men trusting in graven images, and money... And that can be seen everyday in real experience.

I repeat myself, but whenever you buy a can of soup at the grocery, you are exercising faith. You trust that the contents are exactly what the package says them to be and that they are safe to eat.

If you have ever driven over a bridge you are trusting it will safely hold you up.

It is Calvinism that teaches God regenerates a man to believe. I challange you to show that in scripture. The Bible shows even lost man has faith, but chooses to place it in other than Christ.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

This was the Lord Jesus himself, and he said the Pharisees trusted in Moses, which is the law. So these lost, unsaved men had faith, but it was misplaced.

 

Hello Winman, Benefactor et al.,

I have shown in another thread (Justification By the Good Work of Faith?) that the argument brought forth by Benefactor and supported by Winman and others against the idea of faith being a work is flawed. Even though this is a little self-serving, I would like to see how Benefactor and Winman would interact with my arguments. As such, I hope they respond in the referenced thread above. Of course, I welcome anyone's comments in the thread. So far, only one person has chosen to respond, and he seemed to simply want clarification.

Sincerely,

Brian

 

Christianity takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing you from a burning fire. If you are thankful, then it takes NO work to thank your rescuer. If you are not thankful, then you can either be honest about it and spurn your rescuer, or pretend that you're thankful which takes MUCH work. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."

 

Hi Brian,

I do believe you are missing the underlying argument going on behind the scene over this “faith is work or not” which hinges back on Determinism/Predestination VS Free Will and one’s ability to make the choice to believe. In a nut shell:

The Determinist will say God predestines one to have faith and you have nothing to do with it or that would make it a work (you earning your way by that decision) and therefore salvation would not be “all” of God and only by grace; He can not be sovereign in His design otherwise.

The non-Determinist will say by sovereign design God made us to have a choice, that the gift of grace is freely accepted and accepting that gift of grace is our responsibility yet not a work; otherwise, if God is responsible for our decision how would He righteously judge us for not making that decision to believe or not.

Sooo…on goes the battle…is faith a work or not; hope that helps.

Have fun debating.

 

God gave them there faith by them listening to the gospel. It became there faith once they became convinced of the truth. We must believe before there can be any regeneration because regeneration requires it.

Yet it is the faith of Christ that actually saves us but we cannot seek Justification unless we first believe. Regeneration happens after we are justified and scripture says so.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There is not any scripture that says a man must be regenerated before he can believe. There isn't any scripture that says a man is unable to respond to the gospel. In fact there isn't any scripture that backs up any of the tulip at all, or any of it's side doctrines. Such as Particular election, or double predestination.


Paul wrote;
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

How could they have a zeal for God and not be saved? Since inorder to have such zeal one has to believe in the God they have the zeal for.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

submission this is why his brethern were not saved. How can one be saved and not submit? submission requires a cease of rebellion, a decision. It requires a submission to the truth. Oh no this could be called a work like faith is. since no one has faith of them selves because faith it self is the product of the one who convinced the man of the gospel. That's why you need to hear the gospel and if you listen with out rebellion you will be convinced.

Choice;
There is only one choice to rebel or not to rebel. No one is saved against his own willful rebellion. Thus people over the years have come to say they chose God. Be careful scripture calls them liars.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
MB

 

You're always good for a laugh MB. You don't read much; do you?

 

Brian

It is not I that says faith is not a work, the scriptures say that.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Believeing is a ceasing of work. If I were to try to work my way to heaven, I would help little old ladies across the street, give money to charities, things like this. Then at the judgement I would say, "God, look at all the good things I did in my life. I helped the poor and needy. I was very careful not to sin. So you see I am a very good person and deserve to be allowed into heaven".

And this is how it works for man in this world. We have to earn our way. If you want to be rich and successful, you have to work hard. You go to school and get that fancy degree so you can be promoted to management and work your way up. You save all your money and invest.

Believeing is the opposite. We cease or quit from trying to earn our way. We realize we will never be good enough. We quit working and depend upon the work that Christ did on our behalf. All we do is receive the free gift.

Where I differ with Calvinism is that I do not believe faith is imposed on a man. I do not think God regenerates a man to believe. I believe a man believes to be regenerated. And I have shown many verses that show this.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The order of events in salvation is clearly shown here. The topic of this verse is nothing other than the order of events in salvation, it concerns nothing else. It says a person first hears the word of God, the gospel, then believes, then is sealed by the Spirit. And there are more verses that show the same.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Again, you hear, then believe, then receive the Spirit.

Go through the book of Acts and read the many accounts of salvation. You will always see that first a person heard the word of God, then believed, then received the Holy Spirit.

I don't care what some theologian says, the Bible itself says believeing is not a work.

 

Hello Gentlemen,

Thanks for the context, Benjamin. I do think my comments are relevant to some of the claims being made - two people in particular are Winman and Benefactor. But you are right to point out that I jumped into the middle of a larger conversation. Again, thank you for providing the larger context.

I am a determinist, and would not make this argument. I assert that my believing is a necessary component in my justification, and this does not necessarily imply that I am subscribing to "justification by works." That is the point of the thread I referenced in an earlier post.

Finally you respond to one of my posts. I was hoping you and Benefactor would interact with me. I have not been very lucky in getting anyone to engage me. :thumbsup: I certainly do not want to go against Scripture. The text you used to support your claim was Romans 4:5, and here are some of your comments regarding this verse.

Winman, you and I are very close in our views! Here is what I hear you saying...

Justification by Faith = Trusting in the work of Christ as the foundation for our justification.

Justification by Works = Trusting in our own work as the foundation for our justification.

I am assuming you and I agree on this. As such, I simply point out that even if faith is properly called a work, this does not necessarily entail that one is trusting in their works as the foundation for their justification. They very well may be using the good work of faith to lay hold of Christ - the work of Christ still being the basis for their justification. As such, you have not yet demonstated from Scripture that faith cannot be properly called a work.

Sincerely,

Brian

 

Your welcome to place your proof on the board same as anyone else. LOL
MB

 

Your right according to Calvinist "Faith" has little to do with there Salvation. They believe they have to be regenerated first in order to have faith. Yet they believe you have to believe in order to be saved. Some say it happens all at once we are given faith and regeneration at the same time. They ignore all those who have been brought to the brink of Salvation because they are convinced. Yet cannot look at there own sin so they rebel. I've known many of them. Some will accept the fact they are sinners and then try to hide it. Some will burst into tears and morn yet still reject our Lord.
MB

 

Concerning the larger context:

If claiming determinism within Devine creational design, how is it that “your believing” becomes a necessary component in “your” justification? Would not God pre-determining the fate of the universe throughout time make the responsibility for “you” being justified or not His? When does your assertion that “your” believing is a necessary component play into this mix (concerning responsibility) because apparently you strive toward having it “both ways”?

I see by your profile you are a man interested in logic; can you explain how determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive in the matter of volition?

According to “Determinism” for God to be sovereign He must have predestined everything, true?

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

Is it not theological fatalism in this doctrine to suggest that anything that happens has not been predetermined by God? (Logically including X = responsibility for justification?)

 

Brian, I didn't realize I was not responding to your posts.

I guess we are close. I do not think of faith as a work at all, although I think you will do something if you have real faith. A good example would be parachuting out of an airplane. When you parachute out of an airplane, you commit yourself 100% to the parachute and trust it to get you to ground safely.

And to me this is how I trusted Christ for salvation. I cast myself upon him, and am depending 100% on him getting me to heaven. All the work has been done by Christ, I simply receive it as a free gift. No one works for a gift, else it is not a gift.

That said, you must receive a gift for it to be yours, and a person can refuse a gift. Many men have prosposed to a girl and offered her a nice engagement ring and the girl refused.

And you must jump out of the plane to commit yourself to the parachute. You can't simply stand there and do nothing.

Now, if you want to call receiving a free gift a work, or say that jumping out of the plane changes the fact you are depending on the parachute 100% to get you down I would disagree.

Look at all the salvation invitations in the Bible, they all involve an action.
But the action is a result or evidence of faith already present. In other words, you are not going to jump out of the plane unless you first believe the parachute is safe. You are not going to receive the engagement ring unless you first choose to enter into the engagement. So, the action is evidence of faith. And this fits with Hebrews chapter 11 that gives many examples of faith.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Calling on Jesus for salvation is not a work or else we would forfeit our salvation. And the Bible would not therefore invite us to call on Jesus. Verse 14 shows that the calling is an evidence of faith already present. You are not going to call on Jesus if you do not sincerely believe he is the Son of God. You must believe he is alive, you must believe he can hear you, you must believe that he alone is able to deliver you. If you think it is all a silly superstition, then you are not going to call on Jesus.

But verse 14 also shows where we get this faith, it is from hearing the word of God, either through reading the scriptures, or hearing someone preach the scriptures.

This is where I differ with Calvinists. They say God regenerates a man to have faith. You cannot find a single verse in the Bible that says that. The Bible always shows that faith comes through hearing the word of God. Read through Acts and you will read many accounts of people being saved. In every case they first heard God's word through preaching, then believed, then received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

So here you see the pattern. These Jews heard Peter preaching and were convicted by God's word. They asked Peter what they should do, and he told them to repent, that is to turn from unbelief and trust on Jesus Christ for salvation. Before they were trusting in their own works. And they also believed Jesus to be a blasphemer. So they must turn from this and trust Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. After trusting they received the Spirit. Notice in verse 40 Peter tells them to "save yourselves", showing that a man does participate in his salvation. You cannot do nothing, you must receive Jesus as your personal saviour. A parachute is useless if you do not jump out of the plane. You cannot get engaged if you refuse to receive the ring.

Eph 1: 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The Calvinists cannot present a single verse that says God regenerates a man to believe. I can show you many verses that shows a man believes after hearing God's word, and also receives the Holy Spirit after believeing.

Faith is not a work, it is not an action. But true faith will always result in an action. Go into a crowded movie theater and shout "Fire!" and I promise you will easily be able to tell who believed you.

 

They cannot escape the fact the condition of man since the time of Adam, that man is able to respond to God at the time when God intervenes. Once God intervenes man can respond and believe God by faith. This is true for the OT as it is for the NT. Therefore to claim man HAS to be regenerated in order to believe does not match the facts and truths taught regarding the condition of man who were and did respond to God in the OT.

Such a truth stings Calvinism seriously, since regeneration before salvation is so vital to the Calvinist position, everything in the Tulip depends on it, in order for the claims of Calvinism to function in the light of biblical truths.

Darren

 

Darren, I think what Calvinists do is turn faith into some sort of magical, supernatural power, where faith is a normal ability all men have. And the Bible always holds a person responsible for their own faith.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

These verses make absolutely no sense if Calvinism is true. If faith is a supernatural gift from God, then God would be responsible if one man has great faith, and another is weak and doubts. But James 1:7 clearly holds a man responsible for his own faith, saying that if a man doubts he should not expect anything from God.

And when the disciples asked Jesus for faith, he held them responsible.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

If faith is a gift from God, then the disciples request seems very reasonable. But Jesus turned it around and said if "ye" had faith. He made them responsible for their own faith.

And there are many examples of this.

Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

This verse makes no sense if God is responsible for a man's faith.

Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Here Jesus marvelled at unbelief. That makes no sense if faith comes from God.

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

And here Jesus marvelled at the great faith of the centurion. This makes no sense at all if God gave the centurion his faith. Why would the centurion's great faith be surprising? You see, it makes no sense at all if the teaching of the Calvinists is true.

No, the scriptures clearly hold a man responsible for his own faith. Faith is not imposed on a man, it comes by hearing and believeing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

Hello Benjamin,

Consider the following proposition...

(A) All who are justified are those who believe.

This universal affirmative statement can be translated into a conditional statement as follows...

(B) If you are justified, then you believe.

The antecedent of B is "you are justified" and the consequent of B is "you believe." From a strictly logical standpoint, the consequent of a true conditional is in some sense a necessary precondition of the antecedent. In other words, if B is a true statement, then you cannot have justification without believing. (If you could, then B would not be true.) In this sense, my believing is necessary for justification.

If by 'volition' you mean "the ability to make choices," and if by 'free will' you are refering to "liberterian free will", then I would say that determinism and free will are mutually exclusive.

I believe God is sovereign in the sense that He is able to do all His will. I also believe that God ordains everything that comes to pass. Does this necessarily entail that for God to be sovereign he *must* ordain everything that comes to pass? I am not sure. Maybe? Nevertheless, I affirm that God has ordained everything that comes to pass, even the various means of justification. From a strictly logical perspective, even if God ordained 'X' and 'Y', this does not mean that 'X' cannot be said to be necessary for 'Y'. As such, God ordains both the justification of His elect, and the elect's believing, and believing is still properly called necessary for justification.

Brian

 

Another way I look at it, is Calvinist say God has elected who will and WILL NOT believe in Him. Unbelief has been predetermined from the beginning of time, it should never come as a surprise to God if God has locked it in beforehand. And God should never marvel at any person'a faith, of course they have faith, God switched it on.

Darren

 

Hello Winman,

No problem, Winman. It is easy for posts to go by unseen.

I understand this. I do think faith can be properly called a work, but that is not the point I am trying to argue. I am arguing that *if* faith were properly called a work, this does not necessarily entail "justification by works" in the Romans 4:4 sense.

Winman, I rejoice in this, and in your testimony. The basis for our justification is the work of Christ. Faith is the instrument by which we lay hold of Christ. My point is simply to say that even if our trusting in Christ were properly called a work, this does not mean that we are relying on our works as the basis for our justification. This means only that we are using our work of faith as the means by which we lay hold of Christ - trusting in His work.

Winman, what do you think of this? The act of believing is by definition called faith. Belief is not a fruit or consequence of faith, belief *is* faith. Another way to say this is that the referent of 'faith' in "justification by faith alone" is the act of believing. From a negative standpoint, if faith is different from believing, then exactly what is faith?

I am happy to discuss why Calvinists believe that a man cannot exercise saving faith until God changes their heart...in another thread. My point in this thread is simply to argue that *if* faith were a work, then this does not necessarily entail that justification is by works in the Romans 4:4 sense.

Again, my point really is not to argue that faith is a work. However, if the referent of 'faith' is not the act of believing, then what is it? What makes faith substantially different from the act of believing?

Sincerely,

Brian