II Thessalonians 2:13-14

Mark, you are wrong as can be on this. Election happened way back in eternity, calling happens in time. Twisting the meaning of verses such as Acts 13:48 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 will promote false teaching but it certainly won't promote the truth in Christ Jesus.

Another unScriptural tenet of Arminians and their fellow travelers falls under the weight of Biblical truth.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 12, 2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Following close to Biblical exegesis insures that we come to know that God has and still is sanctifying His people because they believed His truth. How has He chosen His people? Because we have believed the truth He has sanctified us by the Spirit unto everlasting life thereby becoming one of His chosen. The responsibility is left to human beings. Believe or perish! [John 3:16-17].

No where in His sacred Word has He clearly told us that He selects some for Heaven and the rest for eternal damnation. This view is a deviant perspective from His Gospel and His ways of dealing with the lost.

 

You are partially correct, Ray - on the damnation part. But God's Word does clearly tell us that He is rescuing His elect from this corrupted world and those that reject Him are damned by their own sin.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Ken Hamilton,

Did you go for theological training at St. Augustine's Seminary in Italy, or John Calvin Seminary in Zurich, Germany. Having part of the truth is better than none at all. Just kidding.

Regards,
Ray

 

Uh, Ray, don't you mean Zurich, Switzerland?

Actually, the major influence on my theology is...can you guess?...

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

I can prove that "in the beginning" in II Thessalonians 2:13 means in eternity, before the foundation of the world because Proverbs 8:23 uses the phrase in the same way. Ephesians 1:4 says the choice was "before the foundation of the world." Keep your freewill, I'll keep Christ.

 

While you are at it throw in Romans 9:11 for good measure... Brother Glen

 

If that's the case then Arminians and their fellow travelers had best lay down their debate swords as their cause is absolutely hopeless and without value.

Even if one accepts your "from the beginning" definition, it is still God who chose.

Since you have failed in attempting to explain away the Biblical teaching of Acts 13:48 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, do you wanna try this one, Mark? Wanna try to explain it away to fit into your tradition and presuppositions? -

(Eph 1:3-14 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, {4} just as He chose in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, {5} having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, {6} to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. {7} In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace {8} which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, {9} having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, {10} that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; in Him. {11} In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, {12} that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. {13} In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, {14} who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Exactly Ken. Brother, you haven't proved anything either. "In the beginning" is used in both ways, so you can't MAKE it mean what you are saying no more than I can MAKE it from eternity past. It looks like neither one of us can. However, with the other abundant Scriptures to support what I believe, and go against what you teach, my interpretation fits the context. Why can't you just affirm that God is sovereign and lose your free-willism?

 

God does not give His glory to another. God receives all of the glory for a man's salvation for it is God, it is God, it is God, who is responsible for the actions involved in salvation from the beginning before time began to the consummation in the new heavens and earth after time ends.

Therefore, election is unconditional in that man is regenerated by God, born again, born from above, before he repents and believes and lives faithfully before God.

You will convince me otherwise when you can show me one of two things:

1) A dead corpse raising itself by its own power and volition.

or

2) A baby bringing about its own conception and birth by its own power and volition.

To be born again literally means to be born from above, not born by man's own power.

People want some credit for their own salvation in spite of the clear teaching of Scripture that they cannot bring it about -

(John 1:13 NKJV) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

(Romans 9:16 NKJV) So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 13, 2002, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

These verses merely state that Man can do nothing to save himself. We are born again from God, and it is God who shows mercy, but to accept that, we must believe.

 

Nope. You obviously have overlooked something in the passage we are discussing. Do you see that little word there - "were"? That's a past tense word. That means that being born preceded receiving and believing.

Your attempt at reading your scheme into the Scriptures has failed one more time.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

1) I see nothing about timing in this passage. And God works through His Word to bring His sheep to Himself. That's why He has commanded us to spread the gospel throughout the earth. No problem for a Spurgeonite here. So...what's your point?

2)I totally agree. And we know that the natural man cannot understand spiritual truth. Only those that God is drawing can hear spiritual truth.

(1 Cor 2:14 NKJV) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again, we see the plain teaching of Scripture that man cannot come to Christ through his fallen nature. So...what's your point?

3) I totally agree. One must repent and believe to be saved. So...what's your point?

So, Mark, the teaching of Arminians and their fellow travelers fails miserably once again to make a dent in the Biblical truth of the doctrines of God's sovereign, amazing grace.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Ken Hamilton,

I stand corrected as your post on 10/12 10:19 . . . indicates. Zurich, Switzerland is right.