Imminency - Not Found in the Bible

Repent_and_Believe · Aug 9, 2004

If we do not go by the "after" and "befores" in the Bible then we must also think about excluding them in life.

Some examples:

1. Before you enter the intersection put on your brakes. Take that out and you have "You enter the intersection put on your brakes." Now that is kind of humorous isnt it! Stop right in the middle of the intersection.

2. Dinner will be served after the ball game is over on channel 11. Leave out "after" and it makes no sense.

These WORDS are very important if you are to fully understand anything in the Bible.

Now to Last Days:

1. If those were the Last Days then we do not exist. We went through either the Tribulation, Wrath or Millenium and missed seeing Christ. I am wondering if someone will give me a heavenly bus schedule as I would like to catch the next one!

2. Mt 24:13 refers to Dan 8:13 and Dan 9:29 where it talks of a FUTURE temple. Not the Millenial Temple of Ezekiel. Yes, Mark 13 refers to Jerusalem being encompassed with armies - ie. AD 70, but this is not the same event as in Mt 24:13 or Luke. Scripture is not broken by such a teaching. The Lord taught about TWO events where Jerusalem would be troubled. Much like you have portions of scripture that have a double meaning. David wrote in Ps 22 of things that he went through and they equally apply to Christ of course. Thus unless you separate them (Mk 13 and Mt 24) you cannot understand the concept of the Great Tribulation (and we call it that - in the Bible its known as a time when there will be tribuation in those days that will be unlike any other. Also - please read in the NT. Christ told us that we would have tribulation. The very word tribulation does not mean that its NOT for the saved. Christ himself said so. However, it is not HIS wrath. Its Satan's wrath. It is allowed by God but he will work wonders in nature - will shorten the days. Hey, I dont begin to understand that one. He made the days longer so that Israel could smite the Amelekites. I have no problem believing that he can also shorten days as well. Its the same God that caused man to live a shorter length of time as well when he caused a world wide flood. No more protective layer over the world.

3. For Trotter who said: Without the imminency of the return of the Lord, why bother with any of it? Just live like the devil, and repent when you see the signs. Sound familiar?

Huh? Why does the very idea of no imminency mean that we should quit soul winning and telling folks about Christ and living right? I dont follow that line of reasoning which goes something like this:

- man doesnt know when the Lord will come back
- he needs to live right lest he be caught with his hand in the cookie jar
- he lives right in fear that the Lord might catch him doing something wrong

No. Paul said that we were NOT the children of darkness and that that day would NOT catch us unawares. And even if it does it doesnt mean that that person could be left behind because God did NOT appoint us to wrath. HIS wrath. Not Satan's.

I dont know any Post-Trib believer that thinks that its ok to live like Satan and see the two events of II Thes 2:2 and say "Oh, I must live right for a few days now."

What is the difference if a believer believes in Pre-Trib or Post-Trib - whether he lives like the Devil under either belief I seriously doubt his salvation folks! What child of God would honestly WANT to live like the Devil and do evil CONTINUALLY.

Do Christians sin? They sure do. But they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And they can come boldly (not presumptuously) to the throne of grace when in time of need. But those that think they are saved and want to live like the Devil without an ounce of remorse or those that have a repentence like Judas (a worldy sorrow - not a godly one).

Thus we as Believers in Christ should not walk ANY differently if its a Pre or Post trib rapture. There is a judgement coming. And it begins at the house of God first.

4. The Seventieth Week of Daniel is seven years. Alva J. McLain's book on this issue is a wonderful text to read on this. In the MIDST of the week the Great Trib starts. The Great Trib is not mentioned at all in Mt 24 until the man of sin desolates and desecrates the temple. Thus 3.5 years of "Peace and Saftey." Hey, isnt that what the world wants right now? Daddy Bush used that term back in the late 80s. We all want to be safe and secure. And apparently at all costs too! No bombs, no violence. Give us a man that can bring this to us. And the UN will someday.

5. There is a NOTABLE separation between the Day of the Lord and the Great Trib. They are NOT in the same period of time.

Some thoughts:

a. The GT ends with the sun and moon being darkened.
b. The Day of the Lord begins with this sign (Joel 2:31).

I do not agree with Marv Rosenthal who puts the Rapture sometime before this sign. Its rather apparent from Mat. 24:29-31 that ths rapture happens right then.

5. A note on Rev 4:1-3. The word "caught up" is not a physical rapture of the body, soul and spirit any more than II Thes 2:2 when it speaks about a "falling away"*. It is a catching up to see something for a reason. John came BACK to live. Paul also saw things in heaven. And came BACK to live. Moses was shown a tabernacle in heaven (tabernacle patterned after what he saw in heaven). And came back to live. And others in the OT as well. Stephen, when dying, said that he saw things. He went to be with Christ. But we didnt go with him!

* same word in Greek by the way is used in Acts to describe an apostasy in the camp in Sinai against Moses - thus you cant get rapture or catching away from this Greek word! That is for you folks that have to have the Greek by the way. Falling away to me never indicated rapture once the rest of scripture pointed to an obvious Post Trib/Pre Wrath rapture.

Thus is it important to believe one or the other. Well I feel that it is. Is it an issue where two brothers could not share bread over? However, for many it is a point of separation. There are now many churches that have turned to Post-Trib and if you feel particularily harrassed about it at your church feel free to reply here and I will be happy to help you find a church which teaches the Post-Trib position.

6. Ok - saw this one from Lea: Personally I hope that the Lord dosen't come for a few centuries. There are so many people out there that are lost that have no good reason to be.

Lea - can you imagine the population of the world in two centuries? It will be manifold increased and frankly at the rate of conversions that we are seeing I say Even So Come Lord Jesus.

I am getting more home sick than ever. But that is not the reason why I want the Lord to come.

I want to see Jesus - but THAT Is not why I want the Lord to come.

I want to be with Jesus - but THAT is not why I want Christ to come.

I want God to soon have a world that is without sin. I dont see the current efforts via the media by the 'mainstream' church having much impact. It has failed to cause widespread revival. It has been diluted with multitudes of bibles thus confusing many people. And the world is aching to have ONE language - which was the desire back in Babylon. The implications are that after 50 years from now Christians wont be safe on the streets. We will be looked at as the reason that hate exists and so on. Its just a matter of time before most of the good laws that we have get swallowed up in other laws that deny them.

Thus I am taking it from God's point of view. Enough is enough. Abortions, mass executions, Christians too interested in renting DVDs than giving out the gospel.

For me - the sooner the better.

I lost my dad back in 2001. I could easily not care about the rest of the world knowing that my dad is lost and burning today because he did not acknowledge Jesus as God (see I Jn 4). Nor as a professing Christian did he believe in the virgin birth. And so on. But its the Lord that causes me to care. And the new nature that I have. And the release from bondage over holidays like Christmas. Now as a believer that is free from the bondage of the past I can more effectively witness for Him more than ever.

And frankly, believing in a Post or Pre trib has not changed my missionary zeal. Why should it? The Lord WILL be coming.

Thus the argument that if we believe in a Post-Trib rapture could turn us into a Catholic wanting his holy water at death to cleanse him from is sins of Monday thru Saturday is not a valid one.

If anything I want to tell more people about Christ than before - because through His love for me by dying on the cross, my obedience in following Him, and His reward for opening my eyes to scriptures has caused me to have a real wonder about Him more and more. Its like being saved again believe me. Not a love rekindled, but magnified.

The Post Trib rapture is apparent. And because follks are telling others that they will NOT have to face Satan means that we have to reeducate some else they believe that God will keep them from that. And thus they would feel that God lied to them when this wicked ruler is shown to them apart from them knowing Mt 24:13.

(edited - took out reference to Troy Lawrence's book "New Age Messiah" as many good Christians have discovered that the author cannot be trusted.)

There are many things about the days of the Apostles that caused John to use the term last time. However, they are the LAST times and Jesus used the term 'the end' to denote their end.

[ August 09, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Repent_and_Believe ]

Ed Edwards · Aug 10, 2004

Thank you R&B for your reply.
I'm still studying your original remark,
so i'm behind ...

Please remind me not to argue with a literalist.
They don't understand similes nor metaphors.

For the last dozen years or so, espically in
the family ministry to families with alcholoics in them,
there has been a phrase: the elephant in the living
room. I.E. THE BIG PROBLEM. The elephant is a metaphor
for a big problem. A flea is a metaphor for a small
minor nusance.

Here in this topic the elephant is a metaphor for
the bankrupcy of anything but the pre-tribulation
(pretrib) rapture, pre-millinnial (pre-mill)
Second Advent, futurist eschatology taught in the
Bible. Peter dying before Jesus can come again is a
flea. But God's true Doctrine of the Imminency of
the Return of Jesus remains, the elephant which which
you must contend.

BTW John 21:21-24 does not show clearly
that Jesus will NOT come prior to the death of
John, the Apostle. With 20-20 hindsight

natters · Aug 10, 2004

Ed said "Peter dying before Jesus can come again is a flea."

Is it? You're saying scripture had one meaning for Peter and another meaning for us? How can this be?

Ed Edwards · Aug 11, 2004

In about 28AD, Jesus predicted the death of Peter
whi9ch may have taken place in 69AD. It is now 2004AD.
28AD to 2004 AD is 1,976 years;
28AD to 69AD is 41 years;
41/1976 = 2%.
You are arguing against Imminency in 2% of the Church Age.
You have no argument against Imminency in 98%
of the Church Age. (BTW, you number gets smaller each year).
Yep, a flea.

natters · Aug 11, 2004

Ed Edwards said "You are arguing against Imminency in 2% of the Church Age."

The TIME period may be small, but the ramifications are large. If the "imminency" scriptures could not mean "at any moment" before Peter died (but rather meant "approaching"), Peter's death didn't and couldn't change what scripture already meant. Scripture no more changed meaning in 69 A.D. than it did in 1611 A.D.

Ed Edwards · Aug 11, 2004

In your first #5:
//5. There is a NOTABLE separation between the
Day of the Lord and the Great Trib. They are NOT
in the same period of time.//

I agree, but your point does not help your argument.
Three meanings of "Day of the Lord" that I find
in Scripture:

1. The full Tribulation period of 7-years
2. the full Millinnial period of 1,000-years
3. any other period in which our Lord interfeeres
in the affairs of mankind

Obviously the 3½-years Great Tribulation is not
the same at the full Tribulation period.
The revelation of the antichrist, probably at the 7-year
treaty time -- it is not the same as the decescration of
the temple at mid tribulation.

Here is my three main pretrib passages all laid out
toghether:
------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

AVL1984 · Aug 12, 2004

Originally posted by GODzThunder:
the last days refers to the fact that the Church age is the next to last age (the last being the tribulation) before the millenium.
Click to expand...

Can I ask you to expound further? This isn't what I was taught in Bible college. We were taught these are the last days. Paul believed that his time was the last days. So, please, expound.

Thanks, Brother!

Bro. Tony

Ed Edwards · Aug 12, 2004

The last days (AKA: Church Age, Age of the Gentiles,
this evil age, etc.) is the last age before
the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus, the Christ.
The 7-years of the Tribulation (Day of the Lord) is
small compared to the Millinnial Kingdom (1,000 years)
or the Church Age (2004AD-33AD = 1,971 years) --
the 7-years is NOT an age. The last days is the last
age before the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus.

Probably, the last day of the last days is
the 7-year Tribulation period.

natters · Aug 13, 2004

Ed Edwards said:
"0. church age continues == you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44"

Matt 24:31 is the pretrib rapture? Then why is it part of a paragraph that starts with "Immediately after the tribulation" (verse 29)?

Ed Edwards said:
"The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 == you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)"

How do you know Rev 4:1 is a "type", and not only simply what happened to John?

Ed Edwards said:
"BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib."

You believed in the pretrib rapture before reading these scriptures??? Then was was your belief based on, if not scripture???

Ed Edwards · Aug 13, 2004

Natters: //Matt 24:31 is the pretrib rapture? Then why
is it part of a paragraph that starts with
"Immediately after the tribulation" (verse 29)?//

YEs, my Brother, you are NOT the first person to ask me that.
So i already explained a fully satisfactory explanation
to it. I shall find it (probably in this very topic
and show it (again) below:

-----------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

In the order to occur:
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
2. What is the sign of His coming?

Jesus answers these questions in
the order asked in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

THE USE OF BULLET "AND"s:
Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:
(note each of these sections save verse 4
begins with a polysyndeton "and")

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
-----------------

How about that polysyndeton "and" -- can you
figure a RETORICAL devise in a PROPHECY?

Ed Edwards · Aug 13, 2004

Ed Edwards said:
"BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib."

Natters: //You believed in the pretrib rapture before reading these scriptures???
Then was was your belief based on, if not scripture??? //

Let me type that clearer and slower:

After having read all the Holy Bible multiple times and
being convinced that the rapture/resurreciton would be
Pretrib, i later found these three scriptures:

Matthew chapters 24-25
2 Thessalonians chapter 2
Revelation 4:1

-- I found these three scriptures are also pretrib.

52 Years ago I was saved at a prophecy/revival meeting.

Probably 8 years ago I was told:
"If there is a pretribulation rapture/resurrection
how come it is not mentioned by John?
Answer: It is mentioned in Revelation 4:1.

probably 4 years ago I was told:
"If there is a pretribulation rapture/resurrection
how come it is not mentioned by Paul?
Answer, see my description of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 above
-- the "falling away" is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

probably 2 years a go I was told:
"If there is a pretribulation rapture/resurrection
how come it is not mentioned by Jesus?
Answer, see my discussion above of Matthew chapter 24.

StefanM · Aug 13, 2004

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

probably 4 years ago I was told:
"If there is a pretribulation rapture/resurrection
how come it is not mentioned by Paul?
Answer, see my description of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 above
-- the "falling away" is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

Click to expand...

Apostasy is now rapture?

natters · Aug 13, 2004

Well Ed, I'm sorry but I don't find that convincing at all. Matt 24:31 is in the same paragraph as verse 29, I don't buy the idea of context jumping back 7 years like that just for 1 verse.

Nor do I buy that the "falling away" is the rapture. The Greek "apostasia" is where we get "apostasy" from.

As for Rev 4:1, that's gotta be the most un-literal interpretation I know of. No offense.

StefanM · Aug 13, 2004

Originally posted by natters:
Well Ed, I'm sorry but I don't find that convincing at all. Matt 24:31 is in the same paragraph as verse 29, I don't buy the idea of context jumping back 7 years like that just for 1 verse.

Nor do I buy that the "falling away" is the rapture. The Greek "apostasia" is where we get "apostasy" from.

As for Rev 4:1, that's gotta be the most un-literal interpretation I know of. No offense.
Click to expand...

Ditto.

Ed Edwards · Aug 13, 2004

Originally posted by natters:
Well Ed, I'm sorry but I don't find that convincing at all. Matt 24:31 is in the same paragraph as verse 29, I don't buy the idea of context jumping back 7 years like that just for 1 verse.
Click to expand...

Fortunately I'm not trying to "convert"
anybody to my eschatology. This is a case
of the Bible interpeting the Bible -
Matthew 24:3 helps us understand all of
Matthew 24:4-44 better. Matthew 24:3 helps
us understand other passages better.

Originally posted by natters:
As for Rev 4:1, that's gotta be the most un-literal interpretation I know of. No offense.
Click to expand...

No offense taken.
Since when did a "type" have to be literal?

natters · Aug 13, 2004

Since when is it a "type"?

Ed Edwards · Aug 13, 2004

Originally posted by natters:
Since when is it a "type"?
Click to expand...

Ever since it was written in about 96AD.
This was after Peter died in 69AD.
This was after the destruction of the temple
in 70AD.

natters · Aug 13, 2004

Says who? Scripture doesn't tell us it is a type. Scripture tells us about other types, why not this one?

Ed Edwards · Aug 13, 2004

Originally posted by natters:
... Scripture tells us about other types, why not this one?
Click to expand...

Remind us
of examples of Scripture showing us
other types. Thank you.

natters · Aug 13, 2004

This one is fresh on my mind "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" (1 Cor 5:7b).

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" John 3:14

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Romans 5:14

Also, Heb 4:4-11, about Joshua leading people into their rest in Canaan being a type of Jesus leading us into our rest of eternal life after we pass this life.

There may be others, those are the only ones I can think of offhand.

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