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Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by One Baptism, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Yes, brother Utilyan, the texts proves the OP, and absolutely demonstrates the erroneous position of the Catholicism's theology/dogma. Consider the text, in that it demonstrates, that the body/flesh may perish or be destroyed, since it is dust. The "soul", or "mind/heart" (see also Philippians 1:7; Colossians 3:23; Ephesians 6:6; Hebrews 12:2-3, etc.) goes to "sleep" in the first death, as has been cited on several occasions now. Once, in this first death of sleep, the person, the mind/character, is beyond the hurt of any creature, including Satan, and is at rest, whether that person was wicked or righteous (Job 3:13-19 KJB).

    However, as the text continues, it is God alone, who can, is fully able and capable, to destroy the person/character completely, in the second death, from which there is no reprieve, no resurrection, no life to ever be given again (for they did not desire Him, who is Life Eternal). The hellfire that comes in Revelation, utterly consumes and destroyed the very lives of the finally impenitent. They do not ever receive immortality in any way. Notice:

    Psalms 7:9 KJB - Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous trieth the hearts and reigns.

    Nahum 1:9 KJB - What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

    Psalms 104:35 KJB - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

    Psalms 37:10 KJB - For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

    See also Daniel 2:35; Revelation 20:11; Malachi 4:1; Ezekiel 26:21; Ezekiel 27:36; Ezekiel 28:19, etc.
    Does Catholicism's theology teach that Satan, sinners and sin will cease to be exist in the second death? No, they teach eternal conscious torment of the wicked, verily granting to them immortality, they very thing Satan wanted from the beginning. They have, through their traditional dogma, made God to be the eternal sustainer of Satan, sinners, sin and selfishness. They have removed true justice (by removing the eternal death penalty for sin), even true mercy (by not allowing the suffering sinner to perish).

    This passage was already referred to and demonstrated to support the OP, in the linked pocket book, Absent From The Body, by brother Joe Crews. I will refer you to that previous post and link, unless you need me to go over it more specifically in detail? Connect the "earnest expectation" to Romans 8:19-23 KJB, and the timing thereof, as found in 1 Corinthians 5:5, 15:51-55; Colossians 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 2 Timothy 4:7,8 KJB.
     
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Is in the context of the second coming ("the day of judgment to be punished", being yet future, not immediate upon the first death), and execution of judgement, upon a global scale, as had been done at the time of the flood, 2 Peter 2:4-5 KJB, even tied into the type, Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed by the vengeance of eternal fire (God is the eternal fire, and he says that vengeance is his; He is everlasting, not the wicked, they "utterly perish"; 2 Peter 2:12 KJB), 2 Peter 2:6; Jude 1:7; Luke 17:28-30; etc.

    Is in the context if 2 Peter 1:11-12 and 2 Peter 2:15-16 KJB, detailing the when of having that "entrance" "into the everlasting kingdom", being when "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"; ie., the second Advent. Moreso, Paul spoke of his own "decease" (meaning, 'of cessation'), of putting down the mortal flesh, that in the resurrection, awake to immortal life, and which is the very word used in Luke 9:31 KJB, in regards Christ's own death and burial and remaining in the tomb, until his resurrection. It is used in reference to the deceased, in the sense 'of parting, of separation' from those living. They (the deceased) are returning to dust, thus leaving life, to go into the grave, to await the voice of the Son of God, at their resurrection.

    Yep, as already stated, demonstrated and proven from the text itself.

    Contradiction to your previous statement, that "David was dead and buried". Are you saying that the body is David, and thus himself (the person) dead and buried, even "not ascended into the heavens", or that David is "the spirit" and thus presently consciously alive and is ascended into the heavens and is even enjoying the pleasure of Heaven without glorification? Which is it?

    You cannot make both David, and have consistency, or coherency. David is not omnipresent.

    Psalms 41:12 KJB is in the context and reference to Judas and Jesus Christ, see Psalms 41:9 KJB in reference to Judas, and the death and resurrection of Jesus in Psalms 41:19, "raise me up", and then to be "alive for evermore" (Revelation 1:18 KJB) see Psalms 41:12 KJB, being set down on the right hand of the Father, "settest me before thy face forever", see also Hebrews 12:2 KJB, "set down", Revelation 3:21 KJB, "set down".

    Psalms 49:15 KJB, again speaks of the location of the deceased, "the grave", vs 17, "dieth", vs 18, "while he lived", vs 14, "consume in the grave", "laid in the grave", and speaks of the resurrection, "in the morning" (that great gettin' up morning), since the first death is likened to sleep in bed at night and in darkness, and speaks of the person "dwelling" in that dust of the ground, the grave, even of vs 17. "descend" thereto, the opposite of ascension.
     
    #122 One Baptism, Aug 6, 2017
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  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Sounding more and more like Roman Catholicism, even as many years ago now, a Catholic posted the very same verse at me to prove their case. I have never had any other persons (yourself now being the exception), use this text in this discussion, except him, in all my times on this subject online. I am talking approximately 9-10 years now.

    Brother, you are beginning to think like them. Seriously - "... some sort of gloomy existence..."?, you mean like a limbo, a purgatorial place of waiting, in transition?

    Do they sit on "thrones" there in this place you imagine?

    Please notice the symbolic description of the grave, and the covering of worms, the cessation of life, vibrancy and strength.

    Even more so, it uses the king as a type, pointing to the real power that God is addressing, namely Lucifer/Satan himself. The final fulfillment is found in Revelation 20, see "pit" and the great end-time Babylon.
     
    #123 One Baptism, Aug 6, 2017
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  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    God, even our Father, which art in Heaven.

    Since as you say, all "The spirits" (plural; though the Bible (KJB) says "spirit" (singular) in Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB, ie. God's breath of life which animates us, the dust of the earth) return to God, you are saying that even the wicked sinners, whom you teach are immortal, are allowed into Heaven (which again, is what Satan teaches and desires), even into the very presence of the Father, even if you teach they are afterward sent somewhere else. (I am flashing back to DBZ before conversion to truth)

    When Jesus died, was buried and later resurrected, he afterwards ascended to His Father and my Father, being that He, the Father is in Heaven. The location of the Father is specific in scripture [KJB].

    The scripture teaches that only the righteous, who keep God's commandments, shall enter into the Heavenly and eternal gates, Psalms 24, in its second fulfillment (1 Thessalonians 4:14; "bring with him (Jesus)", ie., back to Heaven at the Second Advent), Isaiah 26:2; Revelation 22:14; Psalms 118:19-20 KJB. The wicked cannot ever enter there by any means whatsoever.
     
    #124 One Baptism, Aug 6, 2017
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  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Nope. You said God only remembers them nothing outside the body can live. Here you are presented with death of the soul apart from death of the body.

    Catholic church teaches hell is the eternal separation from God the means like total annihilation are insignificant, it still results in eternal separation from God.


    The OP makes no mention of Philippians 1, there is no link to any source refuting.

    Philippians 1

    21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

    Desire to DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, its BETTER. Yet he will REMAIN ON IN THE FLESH for your sake.



    How do you expect to teach anything if you support the murder known as abortion? Your silence is a support of murder.
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I can ask all Christians here do they support abortion they will say NO.

    Why do you support abortion and murder of children?
     
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    "Sleep" (first death, not dead in the second death). They can be resurrected by God, since they are not beyond His power to do that, while those who die in the first death (merely destroy flesh/dust), are beyond the power of any created being to destroy as God can do (annihilate the person, the "living soul"; Genesis 2:7 KJB), in the second death, which will never be brought back.

    Brother, read the Officially sanctioned (Imprimatur, Nihil Obstat, etc) Roman Catholic sources, please, as they officially, and long-standingly teach eternal conscious torment of the wicked in real fire, and used it for many years to terrorize the populace:

    " ... The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever ... The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). ..." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, section "H", "Hell" - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hell

    What does Romanism admit of true Protestantism? -

    " ... Conditionalists hold only a hypothetical immortality of the soul, and assert that after undergoing a certain amount of punishment, the souls of the wicked will be annihilated. Among the ... many Protestants both in the past and in our own times, especially of late (Edw. White, "Life in Christ", New York, 1877). ...", - ibid.
    Yourself, and brother Martin, and Adonia, seem to be on the same page theologically in regards 'location' -

    "... The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know. St. Chrysostom reminds us: "We must not ask where hell is, but how we are to escape it" (In Rom., hom. xxxi, n. 5, in P.G., LX, 674). St. Augustine says: "It is my opinion that the nature of hell-fire and the location of hell are known to no man unless the Holy Ghost made it known to him by a special revelation", (City of God XX.16). ...", - ibid.​
     
  8. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    This thread is getting so long and boring I think I will kill my body and therefore take a nap.
     
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Read the Catholic Catechism for official teaching of Church. Imprimaturs come dime a dozen none of which establish official teaching.


    Hell is the eternal separation from God. Do you teach eternal separation from God? If you are "annihilated" are you not eternally separated from God?


    So if you are eternally seperated from God , congrats you believe in hell. It doesn't matter what Dante's inferno says. I go to the catechism of the Catholic church, theres the official rules, The entire focal point of HELL is eternal separation from God The word HELL means nothing, call a rose by any other name it is still a rose.

    If you believe you can be eternally separated from God, then you believe in hell.

    You cannot argue a position where you make up what we believe and complain about it. You go to the official teaching, the catechism.


    Just like how I read the official teaching of SDA church manual where it supports abortion, the murder of children.

    Hey how does one join the the SDA CHURCH to support their murder of innocent people with abortion? How do you sleep at night supporting murder of children?
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    This attempt to incriminate by association is rather pathetic. The Church of Rome is Trinitarian; does that mean that we should be Unitarian in order to separate from them?
    The 'place' is in the Bible-- deal with it.
    Please notice that the people in that place have an existence and that it is clearly referenced in 2 Peter.
    The lesson that it teaches is that even the greatest of men in worldly terms will be brought low by God.
     
  12. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Actually they do not, and if you would read the material given in the links, and the studies therein, this was present in the Michael study.

    The Roman Catholic Definition of the word “Trinity”:

    Roman Catholic “trinity”, which is nothing of the sort, but a counterfeit, in effect a singularity:

    Online Roman Catholic Library; Credo of the People of God; Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968 - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: The Credo of the People of God (1968)

    “We believe then in the Father who eternally begets the Son, in the Son, the Word of God, who is eternally begotten; in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love. Thus in the Three Divine Persons, coaeternae sibi et coaequales,[8] the life and beatitude of God perfectly one superabound and are consummated in the supreme excellence and glory proper to uncreated being, and always "there should be venerated unity in the Trinity and Trinity in the unity."[9]”​

    Online Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, Holy Spirit; sections throughout - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Holy Ghost

    “... that the Paraclete "is not to be considered as unconnected with the Father and the Son, for He is with Them one in substance and divinity"...

    ... Proceeding both from the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost, nevertheless, proceeds from Them as from a single principle. ... Hence it follows, indeed, that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the two other Persons, not in so far as They are distinct, but inasmuch as Their Divine perfection is numerically one. Besides, such is the explicit teaching of ecclesiastical tradition, which is concisely put by St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity V.14): "As the Father and the Son are only one God and, relatively to the creature, only one Creator and one Lord, so, relatively to the Holy Ghost, They are only one principle." This doctrine was definded in the following words by the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, "Enchiridion" (1908), n. 460]: "We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration." The teaching was again laid down by the Council of Florence (ibid., n. 691), and by Eugene IV in his Bull "Cantate Domino" (ibid., n. 703 sq.). ...

    ..."the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and from the Son not made, not created, not generated, but proceeding" ...”​

    The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV by Pope Eugene IV - The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV

    The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes, and preaches one true God omnipotent, unchangeable, and eternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; one in essence, three in persons; Father unborn, Son born of the Father, Holy Spirit proceeding from Father and Son; that the Father is not Son or Holy Spirit, that Son is not Father or Holy Spirit; that Holy Spirit is not Father or Son; but Father alone is Father, Son alone is Son, Holy Spirit alone is Holy Spirit. The Father alone begot the Son of His own substance; the Son alone was begotten of the Father alone; the Holy Spirit alone proceeds at the same time from the Father and Son.

    These three persons are one God, and not three gods, because the three have one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, one eternity, where no opposition of relationship interferes.

    “Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning; and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.” Whatever the Father is or has, He does not have from another, but from Himself; and He is the principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle. Whatever the Holy Spirit is or has, He has simultaneously from the Father and the Son. But the Father and the Son are not two principles of the Holy Spirit, but one principle, just as the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of the creature, but one principle. ...”​

    "Singularity", because if you know the originator of the system, you know who the singularity is, who is pretending at each point.
     
  13. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    1 Peter 3:1-22; Genesis 6:1-22, 7:1-24 [see also previous and after Genesis 8:1-22, 9:1-29]; Job 22:15-17; Jude 1:14-15.

    1 Peter 3:18 KJB - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    1 Peter 3:19 KJB - By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    1 Peter 3:20 KJB - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    Surrounding context, see 1 Peter 1:3-7 KJB:

    [1] That we are “begotten … again unto a lively [living] hope...”, and what is this “lively hope”, not that we actually have the inheritance realized, but that we are actively and still hoping for it to be realized, and this “lively hope”, will be realized in the “resurrection … from the dead” and not before, even as Paul says, “Henceforth [from this point forward in time] there is [currently] laid up [reserved, even as Peter says] for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day [the Day of the Lord]: and not to me only, but unto all them [which currently sleep in Jesus in the dust of the earth, or are then alive and changed instantly, from mortality to conditional immortality] also that love his appearing [2nd Advent, when the Lord blows the trumpet and calls the dead to life and immortal bloom [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]].” [2 Timothy 4:8]

    [2] Peter says that this “lively hope” that we have comes through, or is by “...the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” and therefore we do not inherently have an immortal anything, but it is only “...brought life and immortality to light...” [2 Timothy 1:10] through Christ's resurrection “...from the dead.” which is even preached in the “gospel”.

    [3] Notice that it is an “...inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away...”, but do we now possess it 'in hand'?, or rather as Peter says that it is a “lively hope” [for if we are still hoping, it is not yet present, but future], even “...reserved in heaven for you”. What does it mean to be “reserved”? It means to be held in another's possession until such time as it is to be given unto us in actuality, but for the moment it is promised of God, and it is He [Jesus] which holds it.

    [4] Peter clearly states that for the moment we are “...kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation...”, and therefore notice that it is “through faith unto salvation”, and not merely salvation without condition [“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13; see also Mark 13:13]. We all have the choice to continue or not continue to walk with Christ Jesus [John 6:66], and that choice is never to be taken away, not even in all eternity [more on this later if necessary].

    [5] Peter says that this “salvation” is “...ready to be revealed in the last time.” and is therefore not yet here, but future still, for we, even as he, await Christ Jesus coming in the clouds of glory with all His holy angels, “revealed in the last time” [“revealed”; see also Matthew 10:26; Luke12:2, “...in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” Luke 17:30; “...the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ...” 1 Corinthians 3:13, even in that day when the man of sin is revealed [2 Thessalonians 2:3-8]; “...a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.” 1 Peter 5:1], which is the Day of the Lord, the 2nd Advent.​

    That word “revealed” - “apokalyptō” “ἀποκαλύπτω” has many other complimentary partners in the Scripture which all speak of the same events:

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:23).​

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of JESUS from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of GOD” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    “to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    “to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    “to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    “to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    “to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    “make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    “come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    “to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

    All Heaven will be poured out in the Triumphant Great Advent of the Lord, Saviour and God, Christ Jesus, and the Gates will be lifted up again:

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [Revelation 22:12]​

    [6] Peter uses another related word “revealed” - apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” here, “...might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ...” and we may look at both [vs 5 and vs 7] and see that they are speaking of the same events, the 2nd Advent which it is then that the “glory” [vs 7] is known, then we shall be changed and “...shine as the brightness of the firmament … as the stars for ever and ever.” [Daniel 12:3]

    [7] Peter continues in this same thought over and over again, “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;” 1 Peter 1:13, and so therefore notice that there is a “hope” we must have for something yet future, to be continued with us, “..to the end...” for that “grace”, which will be [future tense, not yet here], “...brought unto you at...”, when shall it be brought? “...at the revelation [same word in vs 5, “revealed”] of Jesus Christ.”, not before.

    [8] When does Peter speak of the “glory” that was given to the Son? It was after the resurrection, “Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.” [1 Peter 1:21], and therefore it will not be until our [the faithful's] respective resurrection that we too shall receive of this “glory”, then no longer having a “lively hope” for it, but in reality then possessing it, having finally reached “the end” by that continued and persevering “faith”.

    [9] Peter is continually speaking of the time frame of this 2nd Advent, “...glorify God in the day of visitation.” [1 Peter 2:12] and “...an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed” [1 Peter 5:1] and “And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.” [1 Peter 5:4].​

    Is this consistent with Peter that the dead are dead [asleep] until their respective resurrection, and are not ascended into Heaven? It sure is, even from the very moment of Pentecost, being anointed by the Holy Spirit
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    What did Peter teach on this subject? Let us go to a powerful lesson in Acts 2:

    The Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona, filled with the Holy Spirit, raises his voice and begins speaking, teaching and orating. He is not alone in this, for not only is this message signified and approved by the Holy Spirit Himself, he is also surrounded by the other 11 Apostles of Christ Jesus and the remaining Disciples that were with them. The Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona then before the crowd in Jerusalem, in a teaching and expounding manner, directly quotes from both the Prophets Joel and King David, as well as from the Psalms.

    Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

    And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:4

    Good King David, a man after God's own heart, though he had his downfall, is Dead … Buried … not in Heaven … and even moreso his Tomb was still with them all. So says the Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona himself by the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures. Ought we then not to believe him? If not, how about the scriptures which agreed with him and others such as Paul and/or Jesus?


    And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42

    Shall we not want to continue stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship on this subject? What begins to happen if we do not?

    What does Luke [physician/historian] teach and record about the Apostle and Martyr Stephen?

    And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60

    What does Paul teach on David, and others who have died previously?

    For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

    [Paul Agrees with Peter in Acts 2, which agrees with the OT scripture]

    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:6

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13

    What did John the Apostle teach by the Holy Spirit in Revelation?

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13

    Moving onward, Let us see what Peter says after the verses [1 Peter 3:1-22] we are to consider and thus see what is surrounding them. He continues exhorting to live godly, keeping the Commandments of God through faith, believing His precious promises that we might be partakers of the divine nature, and if such faith is kept unto the end, we shall have an entrance ministered by Jesus and all the Holy angels come with Him to take us back, etc, for he knows that these will be his last words unto them:

    Consider 2 Peter 1:11-15 KJB

    [1] When shall we receive this “entrance” [2 Peter 1:11] into the “everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”? Even as Peter said earlier, it is when He shall be “revealed” [1 Peter 1:5,7,13] from Heaven. As of this moment that is what we have this “lively hope” [1 Peter 1:3] of. For though our names are written in Heaven [Luke 10:20; which may, a this time, still be removed and blotted out], we desire to enter there. Peter says that it shall be “...ministered unto [us]...” [2 Peter 1:11], and how so?, by Jesus Christ Himself coming with every single ministering angel [Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7, etc] in Heaven to come and claim His own [John 14:2-3; Matthew 24:30, 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26, 21:27; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16; etc], known as the Great Harvest of Wheat [Revelation 14:15] which shall be reaped.


    [2] Peter declares that these shall be some of his very last words to them, as Jesus had revealed to him earlier [vs 14], that Peter was to die, “Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle...” [2 Peter 1:14], and thus speaks of his own “decease” [2 Peter 1:15], greek “exodos” “ἔξοδος”, which means departing, and in context, “departing” from life to go “in[to] the grave” [Job 14:13; Psalms 6:5, 31:17, 49:14, 88:5,11; Ecclesiastes 9:10; John 11:17; further see Genesis 42:38; 2 Samuel 3:32, 19:37; 1 Kings 2:6, 14:13; 2 Kings 22:20; Job 17:13, 21:13,32; Isaiah 38:10, 53:9; etc] and the “return[ing] unto dust” [Genesis 2:7, 3:19, 18:27; Job 4:19, 7:21, 10:9, 17:16, 20:11, 21:26, 34:15, 40:13; Psalms 22:15,29, 30:9, 103:14, 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20, 12:7; Isaiah 2:10, 26:19; Daniel 12:2, etc]. Peter understands that his earthly tabernacle, this mortal of his shall be “swallowed up of life” [2 Corinthians 5:4] in the resurrection to come, wherein he shall have been given as a “reward” [Revelation 22:12], for having been a “faithful and wise servant” [Matthew 24:45], a new glorified tabernacle [2 Corinthians 5:2], but that while he is returned unto dust, he is temporarily until such time, “sleepeth/asleep” [John 11:11; 2 Peter 3:4] in the first death without a tabernacle of earth or of heaven, “naked” [2 Corinthians 5:3] in death [not the 2nd death].
     
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    [3] We see that Peter strove with great love in his heart for them, with tender compassionate care and Godly fear, saying that he would “...not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things” [2 Peter 1:12] by several instances of “...putting [them] in remembrance...” [2 Peter 1:13], and again telling them to “...have these things always in remembrance.” [2 Peter 1:15], even though they already “know [them]” [2 Peter 1:12], but so that they would be “...established in the present truth” [2 Peter 1:12] and not “...carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” [Ephesians 4:14], knowing that “...it is the last time...” [1 John 2:18]; and that “...evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” [2 Timothy 3:13], because there were already as foretold by Jesus [Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22], “...false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” [2 Peter 2:1], even these reprobate, “Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” [2 Timothy 2:8]. Immortal soul/spirit theology destroys the hope of the resurrection, and of what Christ Jesus did upon the Cross, for those which teach it, say that people enter into Heaven [or hell/purgatory for others] as soon as they die, without any need of a resurrection... for even when will the wicked be cast in to the fire, as soon as they die? No. Scripture says, “Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”, which takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment and second Great resurrection [resurrection of damnation; “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished ...” Revelation 20:5(a)], and so “...there was found no place for them.” [Revelation 20:11; Daniel 2:35], not in Heaven, nor on earth [for there will be no more death or grave, for the earth shall be made New].


    [4] For Peter even writes that even the wicked angels [living beings, like unto us but different, “for all flesh in not the same flesh”, one kind and another [more on this later if necessary]] are yet “reserved” unto their rewards/judgments, “...to be reserved unto judgment ...” [2 Peter 2:4] and even the devils know this that their time of punishment is coming, yet future, “...art thou come hither to torment us before the time.” [Matthew 8:29] therefore as Paul says, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” [1 Corinthians 4:5], and while the rebellious angels yet live and are active, the wicked humanity which have died, slumber in the ground, for God knows how “...to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.” [2 Peter 2:9], for that day approaches and is soon is coming according to prophecy, in which they both [wicked angel and wicked mankind] will perish together, depraved Head and Root and diseased body and branches of that corrupt tree, “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” [Malachi 4:1], and in that day, “...to be taken and destroyed … and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.” [2 Peter 2:12] and “And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness...” [2 Peter 2:13], “...to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.” [2 Peter 2:17], to “perish” [John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9] and without life evermore and they will be made “...a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.” [Ezekiel 26:21] and “...thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.” [Ezekiel 27:36] and “...shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.” [Ezekiel 28:19].

    [5] Peter knows that even in the last days there will be “scoffers” [2 Peter 3:3], “...Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep...” [2 Peter 3:4] and yet knowing that “...the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” [2 Peter 3:7], for in that day, the Day of the Lord [the 1,000 years, the millennium; the 7th Day with the Lord God, 2 Peter 3:8], “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” [2 Peter 3:10] and “[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,” [2 Peter 3:11] and Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” [2 Peter 3:12]

    [6] Peter was looking forward to the New Heaven and the New Earth: “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” [2 Peter 3:13], even so “...seeing that ye look for such things...” [2 Peter 3:14], not looking to be 'unclothed' [death, found 'naked'], but rather “clothed upon” [2 Corinthians 5:2,4].

    Therefore, with even all that which Peter has said what do these texts of 1 Peter 3:1-22 mean?
     
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Peter ends this section of his 1st Epistle by saying, "Finally brethren,..." after speaking about those things in 1 Peter 1 - 1 Peter 2 and also about the inward man and not the outward vain adorning, but rather of the chaste and holy conduct of the Christian, especially that which is between man [husband] and wife [1 Peter 3 1-7].

    Peter then goes into a section on this Christian love for one another, to be manifested and witnessed throughout whole Christian body of Christ [1 Peter 3:8-17].

    He finally then sums this all up in Christ Jesus as being the perfect model and example of this love, and re-connects that with the exhortation he previously spoke about in the earlier verses [1 Peter 3:1-17] with the very example of the days of Noah and the Salvation and Judgment seen there. Peter is giving an example of the very thing that Jesus prophesied about:

    "But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." [Matthew 24:37] see also Matthew 24:38; Luke 17:2627

    People in Noah's day rioted, and did whatever they pleased, and took whom they wanted, etc [ask about the context of “sons of God” and “daughters of men” and what was happening there]. Noah, who "was perfect in his generations" and "walked with god" [Genesis 6:9;p], preached unto them about "righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5], but most of the rest of the world mocked and railed at him, like as others also unto the other prophets [2 Chronicles 36:16; Job 12:4; Mark 12, etc]. So Noah "suffer[ed] for righteousness sake", but was unafraid of their "terror" and of their "speak[ing] evil" of him as an "evil doer", but rather he "found grace in the eyes of the Lord" [Genesis 6:8;p] and "sanctif[ied] the Lord God [in his] heart" and so "suffer[ed] for well doing" while believing God about the coming Judgment of the Flood [Genesis 6:17] which would take everyone away in destruction and thus it was "accounted unto him for righteousnesss" for so acting upon that Faith [James 2].

    So then what do the remaining verses of 1 Peter 3:18-22 actually mean?

    The passage is not saying that Christ Jesus, while deceased and in the tomb [where "the LORD lay" [Matthew 28:6]], then incorporeally went and preached a sermon to "spirits" [the common worldly defined form of an incorporeal immortal being, ie. 'ghosts of the deceased', etc].

    Jesus was dead, having suffered the Death [the wages for sin], which was ours for us all
    [though we too, our "old man" of "sin" [Romans 6:6;p] must die, and be "crucified with CHRIST" [Galatians 2:20;p] and be "born again" [John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23]], though His "Humanity died: divinity did not die" for GOD, Divinity, is "immortal" [1 Timothy 1:17].

    ...

    So, the Holy Spirit was already working in the "Days of Noah" upon the hearts and minds of men, as He has throughout the scriptures [Genesis 1:2; Numbers 11:29; Job 26:13; Isaiah 48:16; Zechariah 7:12; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 3:16; 1 John 4:13; etc]:

    "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." [Genesis 6:3]

    So now, please notice what Peter is actually recounting of as it had happened in the "days of Noah":

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" [1 Peter 3:18]​

    "Put to death in the flesh", and "quickend" ["made alive, to produce alive...to cause to live, make alive, give life...to restore life...springing up..."; Greek "zōopoieō" "ζῳοποιέω"; Strong's Concordance, Thayer's Lexicon, Vines Expository, ; "in other words, to make living that which was before dead/without life"] by the Holy Spirit again ["not left in hell [grave]"] into Immortal and Uncorruptible Flesh [for His flesh never having seen corruption; Exodus 16:5,22-36; Psalms 16:10, 49:9; Acts 2:27,32, 13:35,37].

    He [Jesus] was "quickened by the Spirit" [in this text, being Raised by the Holy Spirit; Romans 8:11] and was forever raised as an immortal human man with "Flesh and Bones" [Luke 24:39] so that the disciples could "handle" Him and that He could "eat".

    Jesus, who spake of the raising of the "Temple of his Body" [John 2:21; Revelation 21:22], was Raised Bodily [John 2:19,21, 20:12; Luke 24:3,6,39,43, etc] unto Immortality as the type of the Uncorrupted Manna in the Wilderness foretold [Exodus 16:5,22-25] and was not floating around somewhere in some "immortalized incorporeal form of man-shade" preaching to other "deceased conscious incorporeals". ...

    "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" [1 Peter 3:19]​

    What is the "by which" this event ["went and preached"] was being done?

    It is "by the Spirit" [being the Holy Spirit], [vs 18].

    Who then is the "He" that was doing this ["went and preached"] by means of the Holy Spirit?

    It is Jesus ["Christ"], [vs 18], for Jesus was preaching through the Holy Spirit whom He had sent unto Noah to warn the world of the impending Judgment of God and for repentance. Remember “And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.” [Genesis 6:3]? To whom was Noah preaching to in those days then by the Holy Spirit whom Jesus had sent? Deceased 'ghosts' or people who were very much alive and living in sin and rebellion towards God?

    The text says that the Holy Spirit strove with "man" who is "flesh" which is animated unto life by the spirit of God, having been breathed into him:

    "...My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh..." [Genesis 6:3;p] ​

    Peter was using a comparison, of then [Noah's Day] and now [his [Peter's] day] and also the end of time] and was revealing that Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the "days of Noah" [not in the days of Jesus' death] was preaching the Gospel of Salvation [Genesis 3:15, etc by Noah, the "preacher of righteousness"] to the living humans ["man"] that were then ["in the days of Noah"] "disobediant" to God.

    The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of Sin, Judgment and Righteousness [John 16:8], which is why even King David prayed after he had sinned and was "disobedient" ["Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." [Psalms 51:11]].
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Who then are these "spirits in prison" [vs 19] that were being "preached" unto?

    They were the living human beings [souls, living beings as defined by Genesis 2:7 and throughout] who were in the bonds of iniquity, slaves of sin, bondage of disobedience and bound to Sin, Satan and Self [selfishness and also self-works to earn salvation] as the Bible so defines:

    "...brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." [Exodus 20:2], see also Deuteronomy 5:6. 6:12, 8:14, 13:10; Judges 6:8; Joshua 24:17

    "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." [Deuteronomy 13:5] [notice also that last part of the text]

    "O LORD, truly I [am] thy servant; I [am] thy servant, [and] the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds." [Psalms 116:16]

    "Bring my soul out of prison..." [Psalms 142:7]

    "To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." [Isaiah 42:7]

    "The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;" [Isaiah 61:1]

    "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," [Luke 4:18]

    "...whom Satan hath bound,... be loosed from this bond...?" [Luke 13:16]

    "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." [Luke 16:13]

    "...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." [John 8:34] [...is the slave of sin]

    "...the bond of iniquity." [Acts 8:23]

    "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." [Romans 8:15]

    "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:" [Ephesians 5:8]

    "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." [Hebrews 2:15]

    "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." [2 Peter 2:19]

    Surely, those that Jesus Himself himself preached to in His 3 1/2 year Ministry were not "deceased or departed, nor some immortal incorporeal", but were very much physically alive ["mortal man" [Job 4:17]; "Mortal Flesh" [2 Corinthians 4:11]] and held in the bondage to sin satan and self.​

    Even as Paul hath said:

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" [Romans 6:16]​

    Also speaking of "liberty" from "iniquity" [lawlessness] the scriptures continue by saying:

    "And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts." [Psalms 119:45]

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? " [John 8:33]

    "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." [John 8:34]

    "And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever." [John 8:35] [Paul uses this analogy in Galatians; those who are in bondage are sinners, refusing to submit to God and His righteousness]

    "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." [John 8:38]

    "To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." [Acts 26:18]

    "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." [Romans 8:21]

    "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." [2 Corinthians 3:17]

    "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." [Galatians 5:13]

    "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." [James 1:25]

    "...judged by the law of liberty." [James 2:12]

    "As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." [1 Peter 2:16]

    "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." [2 Peter 2:19]​

    Looking further at the context and continuing onward
    :

    "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." [1 Peter 3:20]​

    Who are the "which"?

    They are the "spirits in prison", [vs 19], which by the text themselves declare are living people in the bonds of sin and disobedience.

    When was this preaching ["preached"] to these "spirits in prison" done according to the context?

    It was actually done to those who were "...disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was a prepraring..." [and even before through Enoch, and Methuselah [whose name means 'when he dies it will be sent'; 'flood'] as Jude gives]. This was done many years before Christ Jesus was ever incarnated/born as a man, and therefore long before His crucifixion.
     
  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Thus the Gospel was also Preached "in the days of Noah" [for 120 years, Genesis 6:3]. The "disobedient" were the living disobedient and transgressing human beings who did not board the Ark, disbelieved the message of warning from God, but rather who continued to rebel and ignore the warnings that God [Jesus through the Holy Spirit] had given through Noah ["preacher of Righteousness"].

    It was not preached to angels, nor devils, nor immortal incorporeal forms, but rather it was preached to "man" [Genesis 6:3,5-7], who was living "flesh" [Genesis 6:12-13,17] [as we are living flesh], See also [Job 22:15-16].

    Peter is likening that preachment done then ["the like figure"], to the preachment done now [1 Peter 3:21], and their "then" baptism ["wherein 8 souls were saved by water"] in "the days of Noah", and he [Peter] is comparing it to the Baptism now offered in Christ Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit worked to convict of Sin then [through the preaching and lives of Adam, Seth, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah], as He does now [through Christians], but only 8 humans [living "souls"] were saved then, as no one else chose to repent, believe and obey and to get into the Ark [the only means of salvation] except Noah and his Family.

    So Likewise as it was “in the days of Noe” and in the days of Peter, the Gospel was preached to them who eventually died, hopefully in the faith that they might live again in the resurrection of the just, when his [Jesus'] glory shall be revealed, “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” [1 Peter 4:6], “But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.” [1 Peter 4:13] but if not in that resurrection of the faithful, then in the resurrection of the unfaithful, “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” [1 Peter 4:18], so too today He is convicting the whole world of "Sin, Judgment and Righteousness" [John 16:8] through the preaching of the Three Angels Messages and the "Everlasting Gospel" found in Revelation 14:6-12. [As Noah was a "preacher of Righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5] See also [Psalms 119:172], so now there is a remnant group of God's people Revelation 14:12 proclaiming it over the whole world [Revelation 14:6]...]

    Christ Jesus says as it was "in the days of Noe" [Luke 17:26, see also Matthew 24:37-39], so it will be...

    ...Another Message goes forth unto the whole world of the judgment, the Loud Cry of the Three Angels Messages is swelling and going forth even in these Last days [Revelation 14:6-12; 18:1-24]... a message for all, get into the "Ark" [Revelation 11:19], and to be “sealed” [Isaiah 8:16; Ezekiel 9:4,6,11; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13, 4:30; Revelation 7:3,4,5,6,7,8, 14:1] in before the "door" [Luke 13:25; Daniel 12:1] of Mercy and Probation closes forever, and the "rain" of destruction comes [Psalms 11:6; Isaiah 28:17, etc]...

    Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 14:14

    Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness. Ezekiel 14:20

    Repent [Acts 4:24, 14:15]. Turn unto the Creator/Redeemer Jesus Christ, and worship Him who made the Heavens, the earth and the sea and all that in them is, for he is the Lord of the 7th Day Sabbath, even as it is written, Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Revelation 14:6-7, etc.
     
  19. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Posting hint: Keep it short and sweet as most people WILL NOT be reading all that you have written.
     
  20. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Brother, the official sources, all have Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, and the Catholic Online Encyclopedia is not just any ol' material. Further, its sources, and citations, were not just some 'dime a dozen' sources. Go back and see the "fathers" that the sourced material came from. Furthermore, the Catechism itself, uses similar sources:

    "... 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

    "... 615 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG # 12. ..." - ibid.
    Look up those sources. Yes, the chief punishment is "eternal separation" but not the only punishment ["punishments", plural], since it includes, as already cited, eternal torments in real fire.

    "... Pope Innocent III: “The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting Hell. . .” (Denz. 410).

    The magisterial statements above are very chaste in their description of Hell’s torments. We know that there are torments, that they are eternal, and that they are proportional to the crimes of the guilty. We know, further, that there are two distinct kinds of torment which afflict the damned: the pain of loss (the loss of the Beatific Vision — the immediate intellectual intuition of the Blessed Trinity), and the pain of sense (the positive torments of Hell, “hellfire”). The pain of loss is something all the damned share in common; the pain of sense is the unique punishment each of the lost has earned through his own actual sins. ...

    ... In the Summa Theologiae, Saint Thomas replies quite reasonably to the objection of incongruity outlined above:

    Punishment is proportionate to sin in point of severity, both in Divine and in human judgments. In no judgment, however, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi, 11) is it requisite for punishment to equal fault in point of duration. For the fact that adultery or murder is committed in a moment does not call for a momentary punishment: in fact they are punished sometimes by imprisonment or banishment for life — sometimes even by death; wherein account is not taken of the time occupied in killing, but rather of the expediency of removing the murderer from the fellowship of the living, so that this punishment, in its own way, represents the eternity of punishment inflicted by God. Now according to Gregory (Dial. iv, 44) it is just that he who has sinned against God in his own eternity should be punished in God’s eternity. A man is said to have sinned in his own eternity, not only as regards continual sinning throughout his whole life, but also because, from the very fact that he fixes his end in sin, he has the will to sin, everlastingly. Wherefore Gregory says (Dial. iv, 44) that the “wicked would wish to live without end, that they might abide in their sins for ever.” ..." - There Is a Hell, and It Makes Perfect Sense
    How much do you want me to demonstrate and document, from the mouth of 'popes'?
     
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