In Christ

I can tell you why some receive Him and others don't. You cannot!

 

Again you are bringing God down to the level of man! But that is your problem!

Also where have I said that man cannot reject the Grace of God? If you find it let me know.

 

Romans 9:21-24
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Job 4:17. Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

You answer your own nonsensical question since you have made yourself the author of your own salvation. You obviously think yourself as pure as God, perhaps more so.

It is you who said:

 

This passage does not say that the grace of God brings salvation to all men It says that grace has appeared to all men. I will not try to convince you what all means but when the passage states that "grace has appeared" that is synonymous with the Gospel Call.

Nonsense! That verse disproves nothing about the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.

You mean like you do.

You cannot dismiss what God tells us in Ephesians 2:8 that faith is the gift of God. Even if you find a verse that says faith comes by hearing that does not negate Ephesians 2:8; it is simply the vehicle through which God gives the gift of faith.

I have never said that the exercise of this God given faith was not a part of Salvation, it is. I have never said that a man does not hear the word of God, he does.

But it is only the regenerate man who is able to respond positively to the Gospel call. That is exactly what the parable of the sower teaches. That is exactly what Scripture in its entirety teaches. Now you can believe that man is responsible for his own salvation like some of the cults do but if you are correct than we are all lost.

 

No where in scriptures does it teach that a man is first regenerated and then responds to the Gospel call. Show a verse that clearly teaches that.

I just showed you

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse clearly shows that a person first hears the word of God, then believes, then receives the Holy Spirit.

Now, after knowing this you can go to Ephesians chapter 2.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

But the Bible teaches it is the Spirit that quickens.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

It is because you refuse to see the order shown in scripture that you do not understand. You can insist the Holy Spirit regenerates a man so that he can respond positively to the Gospel, that is not what the scriptures teach. They teach a man responds to the Word of God and believes, and then and only then do they receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated.

I have shown scripture that clearly shows this order. If you are correct, then show scripture to back it up.

 

And further, there are several examples of people who believed on Christ and are clearly identified, who had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These people believed first, and received the Holy Spirit afterward.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Same order, heard the Word of God, believed, and received the Holy Spirit afterward.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: )
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Same order, heard the Word of God, believed and received the Spirit.

Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

 

humm..

3rd time i have asked.

 

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

 

You can't seem to understand that all mankind is subject to the wrath of God.

Psalms 14:3. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psalms 53:3. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Proverbs 20:9. Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Ephesians 2:2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Now where in the above Scripture does it say that God has blinded anyone. They simply show that mankind is under the wrath of God and justifiably so. Yet you have the audacity to question the Justice of God; you have the audacity to question the Love of God; just because He chooses some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and leaves the rest in their fallen state. That is to, put it mildly, despicable.

God can only be Just in the forgiveness of the sins of the elect because of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. You might meditate on the following sometime and then beg God to forgive your audacity in questioning His Justice, His Love.

Romans 3:23-26
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again I say God is a Righteous God; God is a Just God. But he can only be Just and Righteous and yet forgive the sins of totally unrighteous man because of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for those whom God chose in him before the foundation of the world.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please identify the specific scriptures you are speaking of?

 

sure...

Matt 22 your proof that many means all.

You said the 1st that were called were the jews...going by the passage.

I am asking...who came to the 1st bidding..calling?

 

Old Regular

I am in complete agreement with you that all men are sinners. None of us deserve salvation. It is God's love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So as men, we are all equal before God, sinners. So why would God only show his love and mercy to some sinners and punish others? And wouldn't this actually cheat his son Jesus who died for all men?

It doesn't make sense whatsoever. The only reason you cannot understand is that you have been taught that believeing is a work. It is not. To receive a free gift offered to you is not a work.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Can't you see in this verse that believeing is contrasted with working?

You are so afraid that a man receiving Jesus is a work and steals from the sovereignty of God. It does not.

Do you really believe Jesus would say to people, "Come unto me" and then when you did Jesus would say, "On no, I can't save you because you did the work of coming unto me."??

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that if she knew who was speaking to her and the gift of God she would ask and he would give her living waters (the Holy Spirit).

Now do you really believe if the woman then asked Jesus for these living waters that he would have said, "No, you cannot have the Holy Spirit because you commited the work of asking"??

So, you really believe that Jesus would condemn someone for doing the very thing he commanded them to do?

I would like an answer to that question please.

 

[Originally Posted by Winman
And this is what is so absolutely absurd about your belief. If God is just, if God is good, would it be just for God to judge and punish a man for unbelief if God himself blinded that person?]

Your very reasoning is to be found here:

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?... Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Ro 9:14,19-20

..they murmured ...But he answered and said.....Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?.... Mt 20:11,13,15

 

In that parable (and it was a parable), none of those first invited came.

Now, if you are using that to say it does not apply to the Jews, because a minority did indeed come, I would disagree. I believe Jesus is speaking in a corporate way of Israel here.

For example, in the next chapter it shows Jesus coming into Jerusalem as king. Many people did receive him as king, but the chief priests and scribes did not.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Now, you could take this verse to say that 100% of the residents of Jerusalem did not receive Jesus. But we know that many did.

And Paul says the same in Romans

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Sounds like all Israel on a casual read. But the next chapter explains.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So, here Paul shows that not all of Israel was cast away, for he was an Israelite himself. And in verse 5 he says at the present time there is a remnant that believes.

 

You cannot pull these verses out of the whole chapter. Read the whole chapter and you will see it is contrasting those who try to justify themselves through works or being the descendents of Abraham versus those who are justified through faith.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

The elected are those who are justified by faith, not of works or of descent.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

You misunderstand the verses you showed because you pulled them out of context. God has chosen to show mercy to those who come to him in faith, and wrath to those who try to come some other way.

 

Ask HIM when you see HIM. I suspect HIS answer will be similar to that HE gave Job:

Job 38:1-6
1. Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2. Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3. Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

In other words: Who made you god?

If Jesus Christ died for all men then all men would be saved otherwise the death of Jesus Christ would save no one.

Speak for yourself. It makes perfect sense to me but I never try to put myself in the place of GOD. The one thing I know and that is if Jesus Christ is not the Author and Finisher of my Salvation then there is no hope for me or for anyone else.

That is an asinine statement because you have no idea what I have been taught. I believe as I do because I studied Scripture. It is almost certain that no Baptist Church will teach the Doctrines of Grace. I have not been taught and have never said that believing is a work. Your ability to read my mind is no better than your ability to understand Scripture.

You say in the above quote that believing is a free gift. Isn't that what I have been saying all along that faith is the gift of God [the Holy spirit}.

So man is justified by faith. Have I ever said anything different. Again I have never said anything indicating that man receiving Jesus Christ is a work. It is you who have made man the author of his salvation!

If you will read the 4th chapter in its entirety you will see that Jesus Christ deliberately went through Samaria. Why? Because HE knew that HE would encounter the woman and knew the outcome.

Jesus Christ extends the offer of Salvation. Only those who are the elect will respond to that offer, exercising the faith given to them after they are regenerated, made spiritually alive, and given the gift of saving faith. You can't seem to understand that one who is spiritually dead can do nothing to help himself. He must first be made spiritually alive and that is the task of the Holy Spirit. When Paul talks about those dead in trespasses and sins that is exactly what he means. He says further in 1 Corinthians 2:14:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The final offer of Salvation is in Revelation 22. The offer is as always in Scripture to "whosoever will". The "whosoever" will are those chosen unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. That truth is clearly shown in the parable of the sower.

The "whosoever will" will be saved!

 

Indeed it was a parable, which if you will take the time and read was my point many pages back.

I asked how many came.

I said nothing more. The answer is NONE!!!

If you recall, this was your proof text that "many" means "all". I have asked very short questions and you post long answers each time. This shows a few things.

1) You come to the table with set ideas.

Look how long it has taken for you to get to this point. It could have been done in just a few short post. But you kept passing over this major hole.

2) A parable cannot establish doctrine, but it may illustrate doctrine.

Yes...which is not part of the parable. Now I have yet to say if I agree that this is the jews or not. But I could present a very good case to say it is not.

BTW...I would like for you to tell me what you think about the person that made it to heaven, but was later kicked out....going by your view on this passage.

Also while you are at it, why not tell us what Kingdom this was. I ask only because it is clear that you are dispensational.

Yes...and this would shoot holes in your "many" means "al".....would it not?

But this really is another subject all together. You seem to be locked in to one view and look for ways to prove it any way that you can.

See what I mean?

I need not even reply.

 

Well I did 'cherry pick' from the whole in an attempt to get you to see what you're doing; you're murmuring and replying against God just as these examples from scripture show. Unlike you I do understand what the Spirit is saying in these passages, but the more important distinction is that I accept it without murmuring. You murmur and refuse to accept it.

You wrote:

“...If God is just, if God is good, would it be just for God to judge and punish a man for unbelief if God himself blinded that person?“

I wrote:

Your very reasoning is to be found here:
........Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?........

To which the Holy Spirit replies:

....Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

And in a similar instance with similar murmuring such as yours:

..they murmured ...But he answered and said.....Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?....

 

Well, it doesn't get any more ironic than this. :laugh:

If you read those scriptures, Paul is responding to what men are saying, not God.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The chapter is contrasting those saved by faith to those who believe they are saved by works, and some who believe they are saved by being the descendents of Abraham. This is what John the Baptist was saying in Matthew.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Some folks believe they are saved because they are good (works). Some believe they are saved because the belong to a certain group. I think you know who some of these are.

God is saying he will have mercy on those who come by faith. This is the way of salvation, believeing on Jesus. There is no other way.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now, the listeners are questioning Paul. And this normal if you've ever gone out soul-winning. They are objecting to this, to which Paul answers:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

What Paul is saying is that God has every right to choose his method of salvation. God has provided his Son Jesus Christ who died for all men. All men are invited to believe in Jesus and be saved. But this is the one and only way that God has provided. If a man chooses any other way he will not be accepted with God. And God is just to punish those who do not submit to him.

Notice vs. 22. This is speaking of Pharoah. God knew beforehand that Pharoah was very obstinate and stubborn and would never submit to God.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

God said this to Moses before he had ever gone before Pharoah. God know's everyone's hearts.

John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

God did not make Pharaoh proud and obstinate, but he knew Pharoah would be this way. And for this reason he raised up Pharoah to be a great and mighty king so he could demonstrate his wrath and power to the world.

And this is not wrong. Pharoah was a truly bad guy. He deserved everything he got.

But God was very patient and longsuffering even with Pharoah. Pharoah saw one miraculous miracle after another and still hardened his heart and would not listen to God. So God was just in destroying Pharoah. And this is what is meant by "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

But it was men that said vs 19 and 20, not God. Read the verse.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Don't confuse what men are saying with what God is saying here.

But after these verses, if you continue you will see it returns to the theme of those saved by faith versus those saved by works.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So, this is where folks go wrong. They pull these scriptures out of the chapter and change the whole meaning. It is not teaching Calvinism, that God chooses to save some, and for others to perish. It is saying God will have mercy on those who come by faith in Jesus, and will show wrath on those who try to come some other way.