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In the beginning God created Evil

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Greatest I am, Jun 15, 2007.

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  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Banned

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    When I was "saved" God chastised me and told me to think more demographically.
    I did.
    In doing so the question popped up that I could not answer.

    In the beginning God had a Perfect universe. I personally believe that that initial Perfection is still here but I am in a minority because I do not think that God fouled up His Perfect universe but regardless of that the question that has been plaguing me is this.

    Why would God not kill off evil when He first detected it instead of waiting for it to infect not only Heaven but Earth and man and everything?

    I would think that to kill one would be better than killing many if the result is to be the same.

    Regards
    DL
     
    #1 Greatest I am, Jun 15, 2007
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Yes, before the fall of man, the earth was perfect and all creation was perfect.

    Where is it?

    After the fall, Eve was cursed, Adam was cursed, and the ground was cursed. Adam's and Eve's bodies became mortal....they began to decay. Animals and plants began to die. Disease and sin began to plague the earth.

    Where is the initial perfection of God's creation?

    Actually you are in the overwhelming majority of Christians. God most certainly did not foul up His perfect universe.

    His plans are perfect.

    Lucifer fell...one-third of the angels fell....Adam....Eve.....Cain.......all the way down to you and I conversing here on the BB. Sin fouled up the perfect universe, not Holy God.

    Because "killing off evil" would mean killing off the entirety of creation. Evil is not a living entity all to itself. Evil is a characterisitic of sinful man. Evil is in the heart of humanity.

    Evil is not some awful thing that God, as you say, "detected". God knew that evil would arise in the hearts of His children before He said, "Let there be light...."

    And which "one" should He have killed? Eve? Adam? Then there would have been no more human race.

    Cain? If not Cain, then one of his other brothers, sisters, nieces or nephews would have committed the first murder of someone.

    After the fall of Adam and Eve, evil was born into the hearts of every sinful human being.
     
    #2 Scarlett O., Jun 15, 2007
  3. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Banned

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    I will ignore this post because you sort of took off in the wrong direction.
    I was speaking to before the earth was created.
    At that time there was only Satan to take care of.
    The question is why did God not just kill Satan instead of waiting and kill many humans later?
    Evil was sent to earth. Man did not create it.


    Regards
    DL.
     
    #3 Greatest I am, Jun 15, 2007
  4. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Feel free to ignore anything that I say. :saint:

    Then I must have misunderstood you when you said, "I personally believe that that Initial Perfection is still here...."

    And God did indeed "take care" of him and one-third of the angels who sided with him. They have a horrid destiny that cannot be altered.

    Satan was given the ultimate death penalty to be executed in God's timing.


    You need to read the book of James. God does not tempt anyone. God did allow Satan to roam the earth and initially tempt Adam and Eve and later all of the rest of us.

    That is not the same thing as God purposely "sending" evil to His children.

    I never said that.
     
    #4 Scarlett O., Jun 15, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2007
  5. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    ............and the answer is:

    He DIDN'T kill off evil before time began!! Since He DIDN'T, why ask about it? He DIDN'T!! No one, you, I, Scarlett (who is an excellent mentor), can explain why God didn't do that 47 trillion years ago, or yesterday, outside of what is written between Genesis 1 and Revelation 22:21.

    Now all you need to do is sit down with a mentor. (I assume that you are studying the Bible on your own.)

    Git 'er dun! :thumbs:
     
    #5 DQuixote, Jun 15, 2007
  6. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Thank you, DQuixote, for the kind words. :eek:

    However, you actually gave the better answer when you said that none of us can explain the design of God's plan in all of its intricate details.

     
    #6 Scarlett O., Jun 15, 2007
  7. christianyouth

    christianyouth New Member

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    The simplest answer would be, for his own glory. Somehow, someway, we can trust that God will recieve glory from the evil that exists on the Earth. The ones who go to hell will glorify God through God demonstrating his power and justice, and the ones that go to heaven glorify God by God demonstrating his love and mercy.

    - Andy
     
    #7 christianyouth, Jun 16, 2007
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    It seems to me that God is "good". He made good, and when he finished making the earth and man, He said everything was "good", but when there is good, or when God made that which is good, like "thou shalt not kill", there is always the "opposite". The opposite of "good" is evil, it don't have to be made. Even now, when you teach your kids what you want them to do, and to you, it is good, your child may go opposite. So what you considered and made for your child as good, the opposite was created at the same time, for you child may disobey.
     
    #8 Brother Bob, Jun 16, 2007
  9. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Banned

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    Sorry if my use of the word ignore insulted you. I did not mean there was no value, I said it did not speak to the issue.

    And yes I believe that God did not loose the initial Perfection, loosing is not part of God's plan I am sure.

    In the beginning God could have killed Satan and his minions and saved mankind from evil. Instead He creates humans and sends Satan to pester us.
    It makes more sence for God to kill the few in the beginning instead of the many later by flood or whatever means.
    I would like to know why He sent the evil angels against man and why He killed the many instead of the few.

    Regards
    DL
     
    #9 Greatest I am, Jun 16, 2007
  10. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Please clarify what you mean by God receiving glory from evil that exists on the Earth....
     
    #10 Scarlett O., Jun 16, 2007
  11. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Banned

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    God makes logical sence.
    The situation here appears to defy logic.
    I may be reading the Bible wrong and want to make sure of my footing.
    God could have killed only Satan when found lacking. Instead He allows Satan to corrupt a third of Heaven. Strange.
    Then instead of removing them He creates humans and pit's these supernatural entities against man. I wonder why.
    Was it a fair fight. On the surface it does not look like it.
    Did we loose. Yes.
    Why would God arrange things for man to loose?
    He could have easily prevented it.
    Logically He should have.
    What am I not seeing here?

    Regards
    DL
     
    #11 Greatest I am, Jun 16, 2007
  12. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Banned

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    True but if I do not have to subject him to pain I do not. God chose to and He even knew He was doing it.
    He could have killed Satan even before creating the earth.
    Why was Satan necessary to God's plan.
    Why did we need evil on earth.
    God could have sent it to Hell instead of earth.
    Why choose Earth. And man.

    Regard
    DL
     
    #12 Greatest I am, Jun 16, 2007
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    My 2 cents. God desires our love. Love cannot be forced. In order for love to exist, there must be a choice. If there is no choice, there is no love, because love has to be given freely, without force or coersion. In the end, the ones that live with God eternally, will have loved Him of their own choice. They will have chosen God and rejected Satan.

    IMHO. :)
     
    #13 Amy.G, Jun 16, 2007
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Banned

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    I conclude from this then that you think that God wanted man and evil to meet.
    If so why do we degenerate Eve who did the introduction. Why do we see this as bad when in fact it is the will of God?
    Did Eve then do the right thing in eating of the tree?

    Regards
    DL
     
    #14 Greatest I am, Jun 16, 2007
  15. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Actually, I would have to say that God does NOT make logical sense. How can He to mere humans whose understanding is so inferior to His. The bible tells us that His ways are not our ways. This is just my own belief but my belief is that many of the things we question or argue about will never be answered until we go HOME to be with our Lord. I put the question of why is there evil in the world in that category. A very interesting question but unanswerable on this side of the grave.
     
    #15 JustChristian, Jun 16, 2007
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    No, Eve was deceived and did the wrong thing. It's humans that choose poorly, not God. God has ALWAYS offered LIFE, but man repeatedly chooses death.
     
    #16 Amy.G, Jun 16, 2007
  17. christianyouth

    christianyouth New Member

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    I cannot clarify, because I don't understand it. I believe it though. God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, and he has done so for his own good pleasure. Somehow, this chaotic existence we have down here, including the rape, pedophilia, war, and disease, is in God's plan. That plan was drawn up by God, so he can recieve glory.

    Ray Stedman, president of Dallas Theological Seminary, used to say ,'one of the problems with you young theologians is you are always trying to unscrew the inscrutable'. This quote should be applied to this issue. For us to say, "God did this wrong" or "God must be evil" is tantamount to the pot saying to the potter ,'Why have you made me thus?'. It is foolish, and in Isaiah it says 'Woe unto you who question the creator'
     
    #17 christianyouth, Jun 16, 2007
  18. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    You and I are probably just stumbling over each other's semantics here, so I don't want to get into an argument over it. :saint:

    But I would submit to you that God did not create evil. He allowed it to form in the hearts of what He did create. But that is not the same as creating it. I can't say a whole lot more about His allowing it to occur without igniting a C/A debate.

    Yes, Revelation 4:11 says that "Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

    Evil does not please God. Not the presence of it nor the effects of it.

    God is pleased with His own plan for mankind. In that perfect plan, mankind chooses evil. But this does not mean that God is pleased with evil nor gains glory from it.

    Evil is not a created thing. It is not a "thing" at all. Evil is the absence of the Holiness of God.

    I haven't questioned the Creator. I only questioned you. ;) :saint:
     
    #18 Scarlett O., Jun 16, 2007
  19. windcatcher

    windcatcher New Member

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    There is the error of pride bound up in pursuit of logic and knowledge. This was the downfall of Satan. This was the lure of the forbidden fruit in the garden: To have knowledge of both good and evil presents us with choices and responsibility and acceptance of God's justice. It does not equip us with his plan, mind, or logic.

    Think about it: Why is it so difficult to say 'I don't know' and be satisfied with that? Is faith dependant upon having all the answers? Or is it more accepting the simplicity of our understanding and those things which are necessary to salvation, as God has chosen to reveal them? It seems that with many questions, for which there may be great discussion, controversy, and debate, there are really no certain answers within the capaciity of OUR understanding, and the limitations on OUR logic. Yet, in many cases, the pursuit of such questions and demand for answers may place us in promoting doubt, particularly with those more fragile and less established in what they do believe. For these, it is not so much that questions get answered, but that their faith is established in the confidence of those things which we can know, and which the Word is clear.

    (BTW, DQ, excellant answer!)
     
    #19 windcatcher, Jun 16, 2007
  20. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    You are so right about this. There is no need to be able to logically define the parameters of God's plan. Or God, Himself. We can't do that, because God has no parameters.

    My dad always says that we Christians need to stop trying to "fit God into a nice, neat little box and carry Him around in our pockets".

    He's right. You're right.

    However, when people come to the BB with doubt already in their hearts, therein lies the open door for discussion.

    Hopefully, Greatest I am will learn something about just trusting by faith.

    Anyways.......great post you made!!
     
    #20 Scarlett O., Jun 16, 2007
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