In the Beginning....

Luke,

Sorry, you found me snotty. It's a new one on my list of flaws.

Let me ask this question then. If science were to tell you that the earth is young. Would you still believe that the earth was old solely on the basis of your language study?

 

Science is not evil.Never said such a thing. Science absent people has no agenda. However, science mixed with people who want to prove the unprovable (evolution) is evil. That which denies God is always evil.

The "Big Bang" does nothing to support scripture. To believe that is mental gymnastics. One cell creatures crawling out of the primordial slime does nothing to support scripture and is in fact contrary to it. It is contrary to the Genesis account of creation, it is contrary to all of scripture.

Valiant put up sophomoric attempts to support the unsupportable. And quite honestly you continue to do the same thing by making the ridiculous argument that the church's credibility is shot because we do not by into their anti-God agenda.

What you and valiant both ignore is that evolution and old earth science is not settled. Reminds me of the same garbage coming out of the global warming scare mongers. It say it is is dishonest. The age of the earth is not settled. The big bang theory is not settled. All of it is just a theory and has not been proven beyond doubt.

To suggest that it is is either ignorance or dishonesty. Your little diatribe about credibility further ignores the many Christian scientists that do not support the old earth theory. Here are a few:

* Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
* Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
* Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
* Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
* Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
* Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
* Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
* Dr. Don Batten, Plant Physiologist
* Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
* Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
* Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
* Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
* Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
* Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
* Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
* Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
* Dr. Rob Carter, Marine Biology
* Dr. David Catchpoole, Plant Physiology
* Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
* Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
* Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
* Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
* Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
* Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
* Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
* Timothy C. Coppess, M.S., Environmental Scientist
* Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
* Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
* Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
* Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
* Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
* Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
* Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
* Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
* Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
* Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
* Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
* Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
* Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
* Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
* Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
* Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
* Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
* Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
* Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
* Dr. Andrew J. Fabich, Microbiology
* Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
* Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
* Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
* Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
* Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
* Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
* Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
* Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
* Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
* Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
* Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
* Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
* Dr. Stephen Grocott, Chemist
* Dr. Vicki Hagerman, DMV
* Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
* Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
* Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
* Dr. John Hartnett, Physics
* Dr. Mark Harwood, Engineering (satellite specialist)
* Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
* Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
* Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
* Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
* Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
* Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
* Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
* Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
* Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
* Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
* Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
* Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
* Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
* Dr. Russ Humphreys, Physics
* Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
* George T. Javor, Biochemistry
* Dr. Pierre Jerlström, Molecular Biology
* Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
* Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
* Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
* Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
* Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
* Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
* Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
* Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
* Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
* Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
* Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
* Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
* Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
* Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
* Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
* Dr. Johan Kruger, Zoology
* Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
* Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
* Dr. John Leslie, Biochemist
* Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
* Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
* Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
* Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
* Dr. Ronald C. Marks, Associate Professor of Chemistry
* Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
* Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
* Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
* Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
* Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
* Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
* Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
* Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
* Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
* Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
* Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
* Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
* Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
* Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
* Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
* Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
* Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology

 

* Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
* Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
* Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
* Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
* Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
* Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
* Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
* Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
* Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
* Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
* Prof. Richard Porter
* Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
* Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
* Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
* Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
* Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
* Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
* Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
* Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Physical Chemistry
* Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
* Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
* Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
* Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
* Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
* Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
* Dr. Emil Silvestru, Geology
* Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
* Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
* Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
* Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
* Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
* Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
* Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
* Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
* Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
* Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
* Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
* Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
* Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
* Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
* Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
* Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
* Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
* Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
* Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
* Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
* Dr. Tas Walker, Geology/Engineering
* Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
* Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
* Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
* Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
* Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
* Dr. Carl Wieland, Medicine/Surgery
* Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
* Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
* Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
* Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
* Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
* Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
* Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
* Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
* Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
* Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology


http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/

 

Now go tell all these scientists that their view is uninformed, unintelligent and narrow.

 

The Big Bang not only doesn't support Evolution, it doesn't even have anything to do with it.

 

Look, all I'm saying is that there are "difficulties" no matter what position one takes concerning creation.

I have no problem with believers who adopt a theistic-evolutionary old-earth point of view. I have taken modern physics and my education has included the world view of origins which I formerly held even as a believer and called myself a "creative evolutionist" (after the order of Henri Bergson).

However, I no longer hold that view but adhere to the young-earth 6 day creation taught in the Scriptures.

Yes there are difficulties but I have chosen the more literal approach to Genesis.

In addition, I am not saying that I am more spiritual than you, just that you are compromising creation with the unproven theory of evolution.

I have my own repetoire of flaws, you have yours. In that we are the same.

If by God's grace you have faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life in His name then we are brothers in Christ regardless of our differing view of origins, not "you guys".

HankD

 

It has to do with whole secular humanist world view of the origins of matter (the stuff our bodies are made of) and life both of which humanist views are opposed to the Scripture.

HankD

 

It would seem to be your argument that anything that is "humanistic" is opposed to scripture. I don't see it that way.

 

Certainly! If not, where did matter come from?

 

I believe several views are possible and could be Biblically correct.

I understand the Biblical reasons for a day age theory, and no, it doesn't necessarily entail evolution although it could allow for it. I don't hold this view.

I understand the Biblical reasons to accept the gap theory. Personally, I tend to this with some leanings also to the following theory.

I understand also why it is possible to accept Genesis literally and yet not accept a young earth theory. You can have a literal 6/24 creation without it being last Tuesday. In other words, you can be literal and still have a billions and billions of years old universe.

And I understand the young earth point of view. I don't agree with it, but must concede it is possible.

 

For the most part Robert, you would be correct, that is why I qualify "Humanism" with "Secular".

Found in the Public Domain at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

I could agree with the underlined part where the "life stance" is the Scripture and common sense but not the emboldened where the Scripture would be disallowed as a guiding principle in one's life stance.

HankD

 

What in Scripture states that the creation account is to be taken literally?

There are many statements in the Bible that, when taken out of Biblical context, are wrong. Eating Jesus' flesh, the permanence of the Law (including stoning for working on the Sabbath), etc. However, when these things are taken in the context of the whole Bible's teachings, they take on meaning different than the clear teaching.

So if we look at the creation account, what other Scripture guides us to interpret it any specific way? (The other non-Genesis mentions of creation are mainly talking about something else, so the creation comment is incidental.)

 

I have been a listener to Reasons to Believe for some time. The bible can support either view. Those that are young earth creationists are used to steamrolling the old earthers because they claim the bible cannot support such teachings, that is not the case. I am neither old or new earther because I know the bible can support both views. I have seen the evidence and presentation of biblical support from the old earth model and have no fear to look through the material and agree they have a good case.

Darren

 

All through Scripture, when God reveals something (especially something profound) through direct revelation, He does so with great symbolism. Think about Daniel's prophecies of future historical events, the end times in Revelations, etc. This is consistent with God's statement in Num 12:6 than when He speaks through His prophets, he does so in "dark sayings". At least generally.

The creation account had to have been given to humans through revelation. Reading the rest of prophecy in the Bible, especially of cosmic events, doesn't one have to make an exception to take the creation account literally?

6 He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
Even openly, and not in dark sayings,
And he beholds the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
Numbers 12:6–8 (NAS)