in the NIV why is Jesus going to HELL ( PIT) ?

quote:
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Originally posted by wellsjs:
. . you've got some respectable KJVonlyers around here . .
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Dr. Bob said, "Now THAT is an oxymoron!"

Before you go getting "puffed up" Dr. Bob, respectable in this context means that at least these KJVonlyers don't denigrate their opposition. It doesn't mean their position on translations is right!

(Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate and respect you even when we disagree)

 

To Tom Cassidy, Have you found this info yet? Have you found the Catholic doctrines which Erasmus denied? BTW, I still haven't gotten the evidence for the gender disagreement in I John 5:7-8 that you cited on another thread?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott J:


I recognize that there is some significance in the fact of where he was buried however it does not prove conversion unless coupled with a profession of faith.

I know that the context of the times in which he lived are important. It is often difficult in our times for RCC's to leave the church. There can be no doubt that the difficulties were multiplied many times over during the Reformation. However, these difficulties make the dividing line even more clear. Either he departed from the church or he didn't, I doubt that either the Protestants or Catholics were very forgiving of fence straddling.

[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Scott J ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Prof. Cassidy, I apologize for being a nag however I am very interested in learning if either of these points can be substantiated. Thnaks <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott J:
To Tom Cassidy, Have you found this info yet? Have you found the Catholic doctrines which Erasmus denied? BTW, I still haven't gotten the evidence for the gender disagreement in I John 5:7-8 that you cited on another thread?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

From The Praise of Folly (1509) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is no lack of flattering friars to kowtow to them (merchants), and call them Right Honorable in public. The motive of the friars is clear: they are after some of the loot. . . .

. . . Perhaps it would be wise to pass over the theologians in silence. That short-tempered and supercilious crew is unpleasant to deal with. . . . They will proclaim me a heretic. With this thunderbolt they terrify the people they don't like. Their opinion of themselves is so great that they behave as if they were already in heaven; they look down pityingly on other men as so many worms. A wall of imposing definitions, conclusions, corollaries, and explicit and implicit propositions protects them. They are full of big words and newly-invented terms. . . .

. . . Next to the theologians in happiness are those who commonly call themselves the religious and monks. Both are complete misnomers, since most of them stay as far away from religion as possible, and no people are seen more often in public. They are so detested that it is considered bad luck if one crosses your path, and yet they are highly pleased with themselves. They cannot read, and so they consider it the height of piety to have no contact with literature.... Most of them capitalize on their dirt and poverty by whining for food from door to door. . . . These smooth fellows simply explain that by their very filth, ignorance, boorishness, and insolence they enact the lives of the apostles for us. It is amusing to see how they do everything by rule, almost mathematically. Any slip is sacrilege. Each shoe string must have so many knots and must be of a certain color. . . . They even condemn each other, these professors of apostolic charity, making an extraordinary stir if a habit is belted incorrectly or if its color is a shade too dark. . . . The monks of certain orders recoil in horror from money, as if it were poison, but not from wine or women. They take extreme pains, not in order to be like Christ, but to be unlike each other. Most of them consider one heaven an inadequate reward for their devotion to ceremony and traditional details. They forget that Christ will condemn all of this and will call for a reckoning of that which He has prescribed, namely, charity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Erasmus Greek New Testament was placed on Rome's Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Trent, which meant that it is forbidden for Catholics to even read it without approval from their bishop upon pain of mortal sin. (Will Durant, The Story of Civilization: Part VI - The Reformation. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1957, p. 285 and Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church: Volume VII - The German Reformation. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1910, 1970, p. 415.)

A Catholic writer, Hugh Pope, under an official Roman Catholic imprimatur and nihil obstat, says Erasmus was a heretic from Rome. He scoffed at images, relics, pilgrimages and Good Friday observances. Pope suggested Erasmus had serious doubts about every article of Catholic faith: the mass, confession, the primacy of the Apostolic See, clerical celibacy, fasting, transubstantiation and abstinence. (Hugh Pope, English Versions of the Bible. St. Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1952, p. 105 and Schaff, p. 413.)

He also ridiculed invocation of the saints, reverence for relics and prayers to Mary. There was scarcely any superstition or abuse in the Roman Church that Erasmus did not denounce. (John Hurst, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2. New York: Eaton and Mains, 1900, p. 107.)

"He seemed to take pleasure in suggesting doubts about almost every article of Catholic teaching . . . Small wonder then that he came to be regarded as the man who paved the way for the Reformation . . ." (Pope, p. 105)

"Bigoted Catholics," according to Philip Schaff, reviled him as "Errasmus" because of his errors; "Arasmus" because he plowed up old truths and traditions; and "Erasinus" because he made an ass of himself by his writings. They even called him "Behemoth" and "Antichrist." The Sorbonne condemned 37 articles extracted from his writings in 1527. His books were burned in Spain and long after his death. (Schaff, pp. 414-15.)

And now, from his own words, regarding salvation:

"We are assured of victory over death, victory over the flesh, victory over the world and Satan. Christ promises us remission of sins, fruits in this life a hundredfold and therefore life eternal. And for what reason? For the sake of our merit? No indeed, but through the grace of faith which is in Christ Jesus . . . Christ is our justification . . . I believe there are many not absolved by the priest, not having taken the Eucharist, not having been anointed, not having received Christian burial who rest in peace, while many who have had all the rites of the Church and have been buried next to the altar have gone to hell . . . Flee to His wounds and you will be safe." (Roland Bainton, Erasmus of Christendom, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1969, pp. 68-70, 269-70.)

All of this information is readily available in the standard works on Church History. In the future, do your own homework!

 

Thank you very much. I will attempt to follow up further.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:

All of this information is readily available in the standard works on Church History. In the future, do your own homework! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I was asking for was that you substantiate a your statements since they were contrary to what I had read in the past. Even though I was the one to challenge you for proof, I don't see how that makes me responsible for finding resources to prove your point!

BTW, I am a layman and don't have immediate access to extensive church history resources. My greatest personal expense is Christians books. However, I normally use my money to buy things that are directly related to spiritual growth and doctrine. My library has not reached the point where I can devote much money to Church History though I would like to in the future.

Again, thank you and God bless.

 

Thomas Cassidy writes,

&gt;If he believed that RCC doctrines were wrong why did he stay with the church? He didn't! He exposed the RCC errors and remained with his Protestant friends until his death! &lt;

Now you paint a somewhat different picture of Erasmus then Roger Olsen does in his Gold Medallion winning book, "The Story of Christian Theology." Now the basics of your facts are uncontested in his book, that Eramus went against many church teachings of the times, that he was the leader of the new humanism. However according to Olson, he didn't leave the church or want to break it apart, he wanted to reform it instead. He debated Luther openly in 1524 in his book, De libero arbitrio (On the Freedom of the Will,) after much prodding from within the Church. From Olson's book, "Luther was delighted and congratulated the Dutch scholar's perspicacity for going right to the heart of their differences--the old issue of monergism versus synergism." His last book written in 1533, "On Mending the Peace of the Church," was one of reconciliation trying to stop the break with the Catholic Church by the Protestants. He was trying to lower the tone of the debate.

From Olson's book page 366, "Its English title is On Mending the Peace of the Church, and while Erasmus's hope expressed in the title never was fulfilled, the little book nevertheless contributed much to the Catholic Reformation and perhaps even more to modern Catholic theology and spirituality."

Olson makes a compelling case with many sources to show that Erasmus never wanted to leave or break the Church but to reform it. Now if you have something you can direct me to that shows Olson to be incorrect I would be interested. However, Erasmus' own last book is pretty compelling evidence for the contrary.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott J:
BTW, I am a layman and don't have immediate access to extensive church history resources. My greatest personal expense is Christians books. However, I normally use my money to buy things that are directly related to spiritual growth and doctrine. My library has not reached the point where I can devote much money to Church History though I would like to in the future.

Again, thank you and God bless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scott:

For a large collection of historical writings online, check out The Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


Scott:

For a large collection of historical writings online, check out The Christian Classics Ethereal Library<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gracias mi hermano en Cristo. This looks very interesting.

 

Is there a study Bible which cross-references Hebrew and or Greek? Thanks!

Kathy
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