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Inclusive Language in the 17th century

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by TCGreek, Feb 15, 2008.

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  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Apparently the translators of the KJV (1611) were gender inclusive. For example, in Matt 5:9,

    "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God"

    2. Now check out the NIV:

    Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the sons of God

    3. Well, the Greek text has υἱοὶ θεοῦ, "sons of God," not "children of God."

    4. The NIV which is consider a Mediating Version is actually more formal than the KJV at Matt 5:9.
     
    #1 TCGreek, Feb 15, 2008
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Unfortunately many when confronted with the truth refuse to believe it.
     
    #2 gb93433, Feb 16, 2008
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    As you likely know, Matthew 5:9 is not the only place where the KJV translated the same Greek word as "children."

    At Matthew 27:56, the KJV has "mother of Zebedee's children" [thus translating this same Greek word "children" again]. The 1560 Geneva Bible has "sons" instead of "children."
     
    #3 Logos1560, Feb 16, 2008
  4. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    The overwhelming majority of occurrences it is translated "son" or "sons." Does not the meaning allow for translating as "children" when context dictates?
     
    #4 Pastor_Bob, Feb 16, 2008
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I believe we should keep the Father/son(s) motif that we see in the OT and which is also carried into the NT.

    MVs like the NIV and ESV rightfully maintain this Father/son(s) motif.

    The larger theological context of God as our Father and as His sons we are reflect Him image.

    The Greek word for children is tekna.
     
    #5 TCGreek, Feb 16, 2008
  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I touched on this in my studies of Psalm 89 a couple of months ago.
    Literally the Hebrew phrase emphasized above reads, “sons of man” [Heb. = beni adam].

    It is interesting to see the range of translation in other versions.
    And that IMO, none of them translate it incorrectly!

    NASB “sons of men”
    ESV “children of man”
    KJV/NIV “men”

    HCSB “everyone”
    TNIV “humanity”
    NLT ‘human existence”

    This is obviously a place where full gender inclusion is meant.
    Although some may argue that woman were not created with vanity. :smilewinkgrin:

    Rob
     
    #6 Deacon, Feb 17, 2008
  7. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    In the OT there are numerous instances where the literal phrase, “sons of man” is translated as “children of men” in the KJV.

    Here are a few instances in the Psalms

    Psalm 11:4
    Psalm 12:1
    Psalm 14:2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. [cited in Romans 3:10]
    Psalm 21:10
    Psalm 36:7
    Psalm 45:2
    Psalm 53:2
    Psalm 66:5
    Psalm 90:3
    Psalm 107:8
    Psalm 107:15
    Psalm 107:21
    Psalm 107:31
    Psalm 115:16

    Out of the norm, the NAS translated it “children of men” twice in the Psalms.

    How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
    And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
    Psalm 36:7 NASB95

    You turn man back into dust
    And say, “Return, O children of men.”
    Psalm 90:3 NASB95

    Not to be outdone here are instances where the same phrase was translated “sons of men” in the KJV Psalms
    Psalm 4:2
    Psalm 31:19
    Psalm 33:13
    Psalm 57:4
    Psalm 58:1
    Psalm 145:12

    Here’s an interesting article discussing gender issues relevant to translation of the OT.

    The Contemporary Torah: A Gender-Sensitive Adaptation of the JPS Translation
    by Rabbi David E. S. Stein, revising editor.

    Rob
     
    #7 Deacon, Feb 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2008
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    They were also pedobaptists too.
     
    #8 gb93433, Feb 18, 2008
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I found this one to be interesting too in the KJV:

    In Heb 11:23:

    "By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment". (KJV, emphasis mine).

    Now here is MV:

    "By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict" (TNIV, emphasis mine).

    2. The Greek behind "parents" in both the KJV and the TNIV is τῶν πατέρων αὐτοῦ, "his fathers."

    3. The KJV translators knew that pater, "father," can also be used for both parents, father and mother.

    So this is another example of an inclusive choice made in the 17th century.
     
    #9 TCGreek, Feb 21, 2008
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