Infant Baptism

Your very observant. I was Baptized in the Lutheran Church but then spent time in both Lutheran and Baptist churches growing up.

No doubt a Lutheran now though.

 

Sir Ed,

If you would be willing, please explain what the following means (from the Lutheran Book of Woship)

"...marked and sealed with the cross of Christ forever..."

Thanks!

The Brilliant Bonified Baptized Believer, Adam

 

Also one other question while I am around tonight, again if you don't mind answering:

Lutherans say that God bestows his grace onto an infant that is baptized (at leas that is what I was taught). Lutherans also say that it is God who is the one baptizing not people. YET I have yet to see God physically baptize any babies in a Lutheran church. It is always the parents (or other person) who brings that child forward and a pastor (also a person) who baptizes the child. I'm confused? I thought God was the one doing that baptism? Wouldn't this be an action of people? Does God control the people taking away their will to exercise choice? Or is it actually people performing the action of baptism with God being present in the baptism?

Thanks again! Adam

 

Sir Ed, sorry I was confused about you. I will remember you are Lutheran from now on. There has been so much said that I can't comment on most so I ask this one question. When does a person receive the Holy Spirit?
OK 2 questions. Once a person has received the Holy Spirit can the Holy Spirit leave them?
I think this discussion has skipped this basic point which for me will help me to understand the varrying positions

Tuor, The Holy Spirit guides us his children in all things if we listen. He also leads us to understanding if we are open to learn and not fixed on our own knowledge alone.

Sir Ed, did you say that, "yes" infants do understand? I want to be clear on that before I clobber you on that point (HA HA)

In Christ, Brian

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

Brian,

Are saying then that the scriptures are useless? Instead we should become in tune with the Holy Spirit?

 

God's word IS the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. The Bible is God in written word as Jesus was God in flesh and is still God in sonship. The Holy Spirit then can "bear witness with our spirit" and lead us unto truth. It is all one package if I have not been clear.

In Christ,
Brian

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tuor, The Holy Spirit guides us his children in all things if we listen. He also leads us to understanding if we are open to learn and not fixed on our own knowledge alone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what you are saying is that we should not be fixed on our knowledge outside the Bible. In other words, we should not be fixed on man's knowledge. I agree entirely with that statement.

 

1. Just because I am saved does not mean my son or daughter is.

2. Jesus Christ commands ONE baptism.

3. An infant dedication should be considered instead of a baptism in this case.

4. And most importantly- This idea is not found in scripture anywhere

Until Next Post, Adam

 

I would tend to agree with flyfree, I guess it is one of those 'was baptized as a baby and didn't think it was valid' viewpoints.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>it is permissible to give them water baptism as a symbol of this relationship, not ruling out believer's baptism later on. This could be considered a partial physical baptism to symbolize partial membership in the visible church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mike:
I can't go along with this either. This isn't what Jesus teaches Baptism is. Baptism isn't a symbol and it can't be a partial membership. The baby is cleansed of the effects of the first sin of Adam (freedom from spiritual death), and becomes a child of God. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross makes this possible, he redeemed us. If the baptized baby were to die, he would go straight to heaven. He is a child of God. He has sanctifying grace in His soul.

Later as he grows and can sin, if he does not believe, he would not be saved however, just as scripture tells us. Like the seed sown on rock, it has no roots. In this case the seed of faith is place into the babies heart, but doesn't grow with the child.

Remember though, the seed of faith takes root and grows in some of the hearts. These babies have to be brought up to know the Lord and what he wants of us. These are the followers of Christ.

God Bless.

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]

 

Michael: I just wanted to state that I couldn't go along with any other partial type of baptism for a baby other than the real one. Jesus says there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism. I can't talk anyone into believing what baptism is, but I do feel compelled to stand up for what I know it to be.

God Bless

 

To me the following verse totally kills any argument for infant Baptism. From Acts:

8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
8:37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

There is an order to Baptism and it comes after belief and in this case confession.(according to Peter after repentance). Infants can do none of those things so should not be Baptized PERIOD!
The Bible is clear and we should accept it at what it says and not try to use our human knowledge to make our own belief system that fits what we think.
In Christ alone,
Brian

 

Adam, the phrase <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "...marked and sealed with the cross of Christ forever..." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is language from the Christian Liturgy. In some baptism services, a sign of the Cross is made on the person's forehead with oil. There are two reasons for this. The first is that during the life of Jesus and the early Christians oil was viewed as a ointment for healing. It still is I suppose. In addition, the Holy Spirit "heals" us from original sin during the Baptism.

Is it required? No. It is no more a part of Christianity than crucifixes, choirs or alter calls.

As for your second question, just remember that Baptism is not a work and is not a physical experience. It is spiritual.

Briguy, in regard to your two questions:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> When does a person receive the Holy Spirit? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats different for every person.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Once a person has received the Holy Spirit can the Holy Spirit leave them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can't speak for the Holy Spirit, but the answer seems to be no. Can a person "leave" the Holy Spirit? Sure.

As for infants being able to understand, I don't know. However, it doesn't matter. God doesn't need for us to understand to impart his Grace on us.

[ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

"is language from the Christian Liturgy. In some baptism services, a sign of the Cross is made on the person's forehead with oil. There are two reasons for this. The first is that during the life of Jesus and the early Christians oil was viewed as a ointment for healing. It still is I suppose. In addition, the Holy Spirit "heals" us from original sin during the Baptism."

scripture? it says that we are sealed with the holy spirit forever which goes against the lutheran teaching of conditional salvation. (strange how both of those statements came from a lutheran pastor)

"Is it required? No. It is no more a part of Christianity than crucifixes, choirs or alter calls."

i don't understand- baptism isn't required or that phrase?

"As for your second question, just remember that Baptism is not a work and is not a physical experience. It is spiritual."

Yet my question goes unanswered: Do people make the choice to bring an infant to baptism or does God?

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Sir Ed, I think I finally have you on a point. Whe a person gets saved, becomes a Christian, joins the family of God (however you choose to say it. (trusts the death and ressurection as payment for sin is what I tend to say) anyway when that happens GOD grabs them. We do not grab God. If we grabed God we would let go all the time but he grabs us and though we may deserve to be let go at times he does not let go. "Nothing can pluck us from his hand" as the scripture says. Besides can you imagine a Holy Spirit that would indwell us to the deepest part of our being who would just leave because a sinful person sins, what kind of God would that be. He died for us because of our imperfection he is not going to leave or let us leave (as you say) when we are imperfect.
Sir Ed or other infant B folks. Please address the verse I shared from Acts. It is too important to by-pass.
In Christ,
Brian

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

I have a good ol' boy for a pastor; the small town, farmer type. In a lot of ways, even though I may be more educated than him, he's a LOT smarter than I am.

He made a statement once, that I humbly offer here for consideration:

"I've mumbled, I've grumbled, I've been backslidden, I've even stepped off the path once or twice...but since I accepted Christ's gift of salvation, I've never been 'unsaved'...."