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Information on Erasmus?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Sep 4, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator

    Jun 30, 2000
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    He is an odd character, creeping out from the cracks of the "only" debate. His work on compiling a limited eclectic NT Greek text is of obvious import.

    On one thread his choices of what to include were questioned because of his humanistic and catholic bent of that day.

    On another thread, his "sucking text" out of his thumb (actually the Vulgate I believe) where none of the five manuscripts he had were complete - end of Revelation.

    So is this guy a saint or sinner? A hero or just a compiler of texts not unlike W&H of a later generation.

    A little help - prefer a couple basic paragraphs to a bunch of links. I've found even in deep studies that few people go to all the links. They read the posts.

    Tanks [​IMG]
  2. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Apr 25, 2001
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    I have been critical of Erasmus for the simple reason that it pokes gaping wholes in the lines of reasoning employed by KJVO's.

    Actually, I thank God for Erasmus' work and lament the fact that he seems to have not left us a testimony of being saved. He was a man of his own time and did work that God has used regardless of his character or beliefs... but I would argue the same for scholars that have done textual work since.

    The irony is that Erasmus was condemned by the onlies of his day also.... the Latin Vulgate-onlies who argued that Latin was God's language of preservation and authority. One difference is they had about a 1000 years of complete dominance to point to rather than just 2-3 hundred years. Before someone cries "400 years", the Geneva was around until close to the end of the 1600's before the ban placed on it by the Anglicans was finally effective and the RV was published in the late 1800's- therefore, 200 years not 400.
  3. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert New Member

    Jul 6, 2001
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    Just a bit about the man from my memory of Protastant Reformation at Stanford. . . .

    In some ways he helped kick off the reformation. He challenged much of the status qou in the RC and tried to pursuade others to return to true personal piety and holiness instead of just playing the motions or politics of the RC. In Luther's early career as a reformer, he only had good things to say about Erasmus. He considered him his teacher, indeed, he considered him the leader of the reformation himself. But then Luther's views pushed on even further and Erasmus began to back down. They began having arguments and Luther was leaving the RC so much that Erasmus began defending it more and more. By the time they began debating predistination and freewill, they were quite at odds and you know how Luther doesn't always show the most tact when it comes to discussing his opponents.

    I second Scott J that I am sad that most likely Erasmus never truly trusted his salvation to Jesus. It is not just his work on the Greek NT but his own writings as well, which were benefit for my own progresstion in the faith. He is kind of half way between RC and the Reformers, so in some ways I hold out hope. It is so bizarre though that KJVO would try to prove he was some sort of Baptist, since they must have him on thier side. I hope more then ANYONE that they are right, since I have deep respect for the man, though I think it is only wishful thinking and quite contrary to the facts.
  4. mioque

    mioque New Member

    May 23, 2003
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    This is a large excerpt from a short play written by Erasmus. Pope Julius II has died and wants to enter heaven, the apostle Peter the doorman won't let him in.

    Julius:  Enough of this. I am Julius the Ligurian, P.M....

    Peter:  P.M!  What is that? Pestis Maxima.?

    J:  Pontifex Maximus, you  rascal.

    P: If you are three times Maximus . . . you can't get in here unless you are
    Optimus also.

    J: Impertinence! You, who have been no more than Sanctus all these
    ages_and I Sanctissimus, Sanctissimus Dominus, Sanctitas, Holiness
    itself, with bulls to show it.

    P: Is there no difference between being holy and being called Holy? . . . Let
    me look a little closer. Hum! Signs of impiety aplenty. . . . Priest's cassock,
    but bloody armor beneath it; eyes savage, mouth insolent, forehead brazen,
    body scarred with sins all over, breath loaded with wine, health broken
    with debauchery. Ay, threaten as you will, I will tell you what you are....
    You are Julius the Emperor come back from hell....

    J: Make an end, or I will excommunicate you....

    P: Excommunicate me? By what right, I would know?

    J: The best of rights. You are only a priest, perhaps not that_you cannot
    consecrate. Open, I say!

    P: You must show your merits first....

    J: What do you mean by merits?

    P: Have you taught true doctrine?

    J: Not I. I have been too busy fighting. There are monks to look after
    doctrine, if that is of any consequence.

    P: Have you gained souls to Christ by pure example?

    J: I have sent a good many to Tartarus.

    P: Have you worked any miracles?

    J: Pshaw! Miracles are out of date.

    P: Have you been diligent in your prayers?

    J: The invincible Julius ought not to answer a beggarly fisherman.
    However, you shall know who and what I am. First, I am a Ligurian, and not
    a Jew like you. My mother was a sister of the great Pope Sixtus IV. The
    Pope made me a rich man out of Church property. I became a cardinal. I had
    my misfortunes. I had the French pox. I was banished, hunted out of my
    country, but I knew all along that I should come to be Pope.... It came true,
    partly with French help, partly with money which I borrowed at interest,
    partly with promises. Croesus could not have produced all the money that
    was wanted. The bankers will tell you about that. But I succeeded.... And I
    have done more for the Church and Christ than any Pope before me.

     P: What did you do?

    J: I raised the revenue. I invented new offices and sold them... I recoined
    the currency and made a great sum that way. Nothing can be done without
    money. Then I annexed Bologna to the Holy See....
    I set all the princes of Europe by the ears. I tore up treaties, and kept
    great armies in the field. I covered Rome with palaces, and left five
    millions in the treasury behind me....

    P: Why did you take Bologna?

    J: Because I wanted the revenue....

    P: And how about Ferrara?

    J: The duke was an ungrateful wretch. He accused me of simony, called me
    a pederast.... I wanted the duchy of Ferrara for a son of my own, who could
    be depended upon to be true to the Church, and who had just poniarded the
    Cardinal of Pavia.

    P: What? Popes with wives and children?

    J: Wives? No, not wives, but why not children? . . .

    P: Were you guilty of the crimes of which they accused you?

    J: That is nothing to the purpose....

    P: Is there no way of removing a wicked Pope?

    J: Absurd! Who can remove the highest authority of all? . . . A Pope can be
    corrected only by a general council, but no general
    council can be held without the Pope's consent.... Thus he cannot be
    deposed for any crime whatsoever.

    P: Not for murder?

    J: No, not even if it were parricide.

    P: Not for fornication?

    J: Not for incest.

    P: Not for simony?

    J: Not for 600 acts of simony.

    P: Not for poisoning?

    J: No, nor for sacrilege.

    P: Not for all these crimes gathered in a single person?

    J: Add 600 more to them, there is no power that can depose the Pope.

    P: A novel privilege for my successors_to be the wickedest of men, yet be
    safe from punishment. So much the unhappier the Church that cannot shake
    such a monster off its shoulders.... The people ought to rise with paving
    stones and dash such a wretch's brains out.... If Satan needed a vicar he
    could find none fitter than you. What sign have you ever shown of an

    J: Is it not apostolic to increase Christ's Church? . . .

    P: How have you increased the Church? . . .

    J: I filled Rome with palaces . . . troops of servants, armies, offices....

    P: The Church had nothing of this when it was founded by Christ....

    J: You are thinking of the old affair when you starved as Pope, with a
    handful of poor hunted bishops about you. Time has changed all that. . .
    Look now at our gorgeous churches . . . bishops like
    kings . . . cardinals gloriously attended, horses and mules checked with
    gold and jewels and shod with gold and silver. Beyond all, myself, Supreme
    Pontiff, borne on soldiers' shoulders in a golden chair, and waving my hand
    majestically to adoring crowds. Hearken to the roar of the cannon, the
    bugle notes, the boom of the drums. Observe the military engines, the
    shouting populace, torches blazing in street
    and square, and the kings of the earth scarce admitted to kiss my
    Holiness's foot.... Look at all this, and tell me, is it not magnificent? ... You
    perceive what a poor wretch of a bishop you are, compared to me.

    P: Insolent wretch! Fraud, usury, and cunning made you pope.... I brought
    heathen Rome to acknowledge Christ; you have made it heathen again. Paul
    did not talk of the cities he had stormed, the
    legions he had slaughtered . . . he talked of shipwrecks, bonds, disgraces,
    stripes; these were his apostolic triumphs, these were the glories of a
    Christian general. When he boasted it was of the souls he had
    recovered from Satan, not of his piles of ducats. . .

    J: All this is news to me.

    P: Very likely. With your treaties and your protocols, your armies and your
    victories, you had no time to read the Gospels.... You
    pretend to be a Christian, you are no better than a Turk; you think like a
    Turk, you are as licentious as a Turk. If there is any difference
    you are worse....

    J: Then you won't open the gates?

    P: Sooner to anyone else than to such as you....

    J: If you don't give in I will take your place by storm. They are making fine
    havoc below just now; I shall soon have 60,000 ghosts
    behind me.

    P: O wretched man! O miserable Church! . . . I am not surprised that so few
    now apply here for admission, when the Church has such rulers. Yet there
    must be good in the world, too, when such a sink of iniquity can be honored
    merely because he bears the name of Pope.