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Inherent-Free-Willer

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by davidgeminden, Oct 6, 2017.

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  1. davidgeminden

    davidgeminden Member

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    I refer to myself as an "inherent-free-willer" Christian, which means I believe in the inherent ability of fallen mankind to accept/believe or reject God's call/drawing/convicting/convincing/persuading teaching work using the creation, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 1:18-20; Rom. 10:8-17; 1Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12; Luke 8:21; Jn. 15:26, 16:13; 2 Thess. 2:13).

    I believe humans are born corrupted sinners [The old man (Rom. 6:6; Eph.4:22; Col. 3:9)] having two spiritual natures, good and evil, because of Adam's and Eve's sin, that is, fallen/corrupted/sinful mankind is now spiritually bi-natured (spiritually dual natured) having two spiritual natures [a good spiritual nature and an evil/sin spiritual nature (Gen. 2:16-17; Gen. 3:1-7; Rom. 2:14-15, Rom. 7:15-25)], thus knowing good and evil in accordance with Adam's and Eve's sin of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This dual nature of fallen mankind ensures that people can not live a perfect sinless life. Some times I use psychological verbiage and say "fallen mankind is born spiritually bipolar having two poles {(two natures) (good and evil)} internally pulling on our free wills, rather than externally pulling on our wills as took place with the external temptation of the serpent that took place in the garden of Eden.". In Rom. 2:15 the Holy Spirit states through the Apostle Paul that the gentiles have the law written in their hearts which I believe is biblical evidence of the good spiritual nature in fallen bi-natured mankind. In Rom. 7:23 the Holy Spirit has the Apostle Paul state that a law of sin dwells in his members which I believe is biblical evidence of the evil spiritual nature in fallen bi-natured mankind. The new man is a Christian born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit and should be willingly walking in/after the Spirit); that is, the new man has a good spiritual nature, evil/sin spiritual nature and the indwelling Holy Spirit and should be willingly walking in/after the Spirit (Eph. 3:16, Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 7:24-8:26; Gal. 5:16-25).

    My limited knowledge of early Christian history led me to conclude that when the early Christian community concluded that fallen mankind had only one nature that was evil, the door was opened for pagan unconditional determinism to be easily injected into Christianity ultimately resulting in the development of an anemic puppeteering sovereign God concept and ultimately the TULIP soteriology.
     
    #1 davidgeminden, Oct 6, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, you deny the truth of Romans 8:2? "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
     
    #2 TCassidy, Oct 6, 2017
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  3. davidgeminden

    davidgeminden Member

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    Hi TCassidy,
    I did not say that I deny the truth of Romans 8:2. You are saying that I deny the truth of Romans 8:2. Please explain what makes you think that I deny the truth of Romans 8:2. I mentioned that the new man has the indwelling Holy Spirit which I believe is (the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus).
     
    #3 davidgeminden, Oct 6, 2017
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is a problem with that view.

    John 16 says the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- no limit. A supernatural work
    John 12;32 - Jesus draws "ALL mankind unto Him" supernaturally.
    Genesis 3 - God supernaturally places enmity between mankind and Satan

    Your position is stated in such a way as to say that without all of that supernatural element -- mankind still has a good nature free to choose. The problem with that is that there is no way to show it is true - because there is no condition where man is born but all that supernatural element is not there - so no way we can see what man can actually do of "himself" without God doing what He is doing "everywhere".
     
    #4 BobRyan, Oct 6, 2017
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I have often on this board said that there are no new heresies, but it appears I have been wrong.

    There is no warrant in Scripture for two human natures. Human nature is, at least, severely crippled by the Fall and by our actions. "Total depravity," as TULIPists put it, is perhaps an unfortunate choice of words. It does not mean that everything a human does is evil, but that he is incapable of doing anything "good." He is simply unable to respond to God in any meaningful way. Even Calvinists do not believe that the Fall extinguished every vestige of the light of God in humans; through his common grace they may do things that are good, or at least not evil.

    Most Christians who reject total depravity do not believe that there are two human natures. (Even Pelagians don't believe that.) This is pretty close to a human version of theistic dualism. It's not in the Bible and not in any orthodox teaching.

    Perhaps you are being led astray by Paul's teaching on the warring of the new man with the old man. But that applies only to Christians, not unbelievers.
     
    #5 rsr, Oct 6, 2017
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    This post falls under the category of confusion. As Brother rsr stated, where do you find fallen lost folk have a good nature?
     
    #6 SovereignGrace, Oct 7, 2017
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It is true that the Romans 7 teaching deals with believers who have "the new creation" the "new heart" of the New Covenant and ALSO have the sinful nature.

    But there is a "hardening" as we see in Romans 9 -- even for the lost. A lost person "can become hardened" over time until they do not respond to the Gospel even given the supernatural drawing of God.
     
    #7 BobRyan, Oct 7, 2017
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The bible, in Romans 8:2, says that the lost man's will was bound to the law of sin and death. You say that the lost man's will is free. The bible says that only the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus can make us free from the law of sin and of death.

    The lost man's will is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

    The saved man's will is not free. It is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

    No "free will." Only the will first being in bondage to the law of sin and death and then being bound to the law of new life in Christ.
     
    #8 TCassidy, Oct 7, 2017
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Along with all these other posts....Romans 6:20-21 puts an end to this dual nature theory.
     
    #9 Iconoclast, Oct 10, 2017
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The OP title should have been 'Incoherent Free-Willer.'
     
    #10 SovereignGrace, Oct 10, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Isn't all absolute free will pretty much under same heading though?
     
    #11 Yeshua1, Oct 10, 2017
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again"' (John 3:6-7).

    'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Corinthians 2:14).
     
    #12 Martin Marprelate, Oct 11, 2017
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Wow!!!! What a coincidence. I refer to myself as an inerrant compatibilist.
     
    #13 JonC, Oct 11, 2017
  14. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    That is incorrect. Two natures is Biblical. However when you're born naturally, you have only the ONE nature; the sin nature. Only when one is born of the Spirit do they have two natures. But one's unregenerated sin nature does not keep him from WILLINGLY believing on the Lord Jesus Christ while the Holy Spirit is convicting his heart of sin, righteousness and judgement. I believe in free will too, but before I was saved I only had a sin nature..
     
    #14 SheepWhisperer, Oct 16, 2017
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You've described three distinct parts. Which one are you?
     
    #15 thatbrian, Nov 22, 2017
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