Inherited Sinfulness

So you think David was exaggerating in Ps 51:5?

Is he not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as he writes this? </font>[/QUOTE]I believe the Holy Spirit inspired the hyperbole. Hyperbole isn't wrong or bad! If you believe it is, I'd suggest cutting off your hands, gouging out your eyes, or something else to the same effect that Christ told the crowds to do if that body part caused them to sin.

 

I would say it's something to the effect that David is looking back at his life, and there isn't a single day he can remember in which his sin isn't ever before him. It's a hyperbolic amplification of the previous verses, IMO.

Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. (ESV)

 

Hello StefanM.

I'm sorry to disagree with you but our condition is not the result of a nutural thing but is judicial.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

We must not be able to reach out. We are not allowed to. Punished we are for the sin of Adam. We must be imputed with the sin of Adam otherwise we cannot be imputed with the righteousness of Christ. Tit for tat.
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

And a guard is set on it.

Look how many words you need to understand a verse.
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
But you err because David says surely and that excludes hyperbole.

Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. (ESV)
This is not hyperbole and true of me.

john.

 

I would say it's something to the effect that David is looking back at his life, and there isn't a single day he can remember in which his sin isn't ever before him. It's a hyperbolic amplification of the previous verses, IMO.

Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. (ESV) </font>[/QUOTE]Apparently then you disagree with David and miss his point. If it is as you say then why would he go back further than he could remember? ie. to his mother's womb if he is not trying to say that this sin that plagues him was there at the beginning? </font>[/QUOTE]Hyperbole. He's exaggerating for effect. It's a Psalm--a poetic expression of emotion. He's not putting together a theological treatise of the nature of man.

 

To johnp:
I don't see how we can justly be imputed with another's sin. I'll just have to agree to disagree with you.

Ezek. 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

But back to Psalm 51:5, I'd refrain from hinging the debate on the word in the NIV: "surely."

Consulting other translations:
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me. (NASB)

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (KJV)

Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me. (HCSB)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. (ASV)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)

There clearly is no consensus concerning the wording of the NIV text.


Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

Is God literally the only one he sinned against?

What about Uriah? Did he not sin against him by effectively murdering him and stealing his wife?

I look at the passage as a whole as a poem--expressive language whose meaning is not discovered from a literal reading of the text but a literary, nuanced reading of the text.

 

He could be. I'm less inclined to say so in this instance, but Hebrew language in general is very emotional and expressive.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to evaluate every single verse. That Psalm 51:5 is hyperbole is merely my opinion. You don't have to accept it. It's not infallible.

 

Our acts are expressions of our inner selves. We sin because we are sinners. Our nature is what makes us sinners.

This nature is found within every part of man, so refraining from external acts of sin is not enough to entitle us to salvation (Lu 18:11). Men break the commandments of God by harboring evil thoughts (Mt 5:21-22, 27-28; Eph 2:3). Infants bring this innate corruption from the very womb (Ps 51:5). Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child (Pr 22:15). The whole nature of man is a seedbed of sin (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Job 9:20; Ps 14:2-3; 36:2; Eccl 7:20; Jer 17:9; Mt 15:19; Ro 3:10).

This evil principal or corruption is labeled a `root' (De 29:18) and is said to bring forth fruit unto death (Ro 7:5,24). We must do more than look on the outward appearance, but we must search the inward parts looking to the root. Hatred and wrath are not deeds of the body, but dispositions of the soul and affections of the heart.

These evil works of the flesh are of the same root, yet are divided and contrary one to the other, and are not all necessarily displayed or always displayed. This sin nature is in every man (Rom 3:9-18,23). What is man that the Lord is mindful of him? Such love is displayed by Jesus having died for our sins purchasing for us salvation!

Our sins obvious as both inner or outer works. An example of inward is hatred. Hatred: inward disposition of hostility; lack of regard for another (1Jo 2:9,11; 3:15; 4:20).

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
July 5, 2005

 

Our sins are obvious as both inner or outer works. Be sure your sin will find you out. Divine mercy, or divine judgment. One or the other is directed towards man.

 

Hello StefanM.

And then you cannot see how we can justly be imputed with another's righteousness?

I have no problem agreeing to disagree but not to the point of not contending.
JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

It's beyond dispute that sinners will die for their sins unless another dies in their place. It is also beyond dispute that all have sinned and have been sinners since conception.
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Behold means : see intently and fully : it does not mean poetically.
One should be careful about decrying the translators that were chosen by God.

 

We just come from two different kinds of presuppositions. I'll be out for the week after now, so I'll not be able to finish this debate.

 

I find the doctrine of Original Sin to be very important. We must remember that it consists of two parts:
Original Guilt: The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to all of his race. This is because Adam stood in a special role known as Federal Headship. Rom. 5 and I Cor. 15 couldn't be more clear. Just as we are imputed righteousness in Christ, we are imputed sin in Adam. Someone cited a passage from Ezek that is not germane to this discussion. Ezek is not talking about Original Sin but about Israel's temporal punishments for her disobedience.
Original Corruption: Descendents of Adam are born with a carnal nature. We desire to wander from God. Rom 8, Eph 2 tells us that this corruption is so pervasive that we cannot please God or even desire to please God.
Weakness on this teaching is very troubling to me. Yet, it seems more and more pervasive.

 

Someone complained that they could not see how guilt can be imputed.
There are two aspects to guilt: realtus culpae (blameworthiness) and realtus poenae (liablity to punishment). It is true that blameworthiness cannot be imputed but liability to punishment can be. In fact, my liablity to punishment was imputed to Christ. He was not blameworthy. In fact, He was the spotless Lamb. But He was liable for my punishment. The chastisement for my sins were laid upon Him. The wonder of His grace and love is that He willingly took upon this liability.
In "Porgy and Bess," a figure who is like the devil complains, "Sure they did that deed in the Garden of Eden but why chasterize you and me?" But if we want to complain about that, shall we then renounce the imputation of our sins to Christ?