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Featured Investigative Judgement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, May 9, 2015.

  1. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    You really are shameless. All these are EGW contemporaries:tonofbricks:
    So we jump from scriptures, from John in 96AD to 1850s?

    Let me walk you through history. Miller and co engages in date setting. Settles for 1843 as the date of Christ return. He realizes he had missed a year and he moves it to 1844. Massive disappointment ensues. Instead of admitting error, and to save face the dejected lot led by Hiram imagine that instead of Christ returning, he moved through compartments IN HEAVEN. After the disappointment, two groups emerge, shut-door and open-door. The former insists after 1844, nobody can be saved. The latter insists the door is open. EGW and her hubby are in the shut-door camp. They trade insults with the shut-door being the most vicious. Between 1844 and 1851, a doctrinal shift happens in the shut-door camp; they re gradually shifting towards open-door. IJ offers them a perfect excuse to shift into open-door without admitting the error. They are now in the same position as the open-door camp. So something happened in 1844, just not on earth. That's how IJ is born. EGW legitimizes it as usual by her visions. It gains currency.

    That's the short version. I have a thread on shut-door and I hope you can make time and go through it. It is quite rich. You look like a smart person. The reason Paul with tears warned the flock against grievous wolves is because they devour the flock. Before you pledge allegiance to people and doctrines, examine them on your own; it is your life at stake. Go through it and then we can exchange notes
     
    #81 vooks, May 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2015
  2. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Not sure why some are ASHAMED of their brand new doctrines while Paul says he is not ashamed of the gospel

    Source: Ministry Magazine, October 1980
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Not at all ashamed, brother vooks, but instead we uphold it as a lit candle in a dark place, and an identifying badge of light as of belonging specifically to Christ Jesus. Please consider::

    [01] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2217885&postcount=32
    [02] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2218246&postcount=36
    [03] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2218249&postcount=37
    [04] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2218253&postcount=38
    [05] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2218261&postcount=39
    [06] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2218263&postcount=40
    [07] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2219683&postcount=44
    [08] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2220620&postcount=50
    [09] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2221375&postcount=57
    [10] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2221376&postcount=58
    [11] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2222645&postcount=60
    [12] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2224206&postcount=64
    [13] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2224754&postcount=65
    [14] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2225287&postcount=66
    [15] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2225694&postcount=67
    [16a] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2226007&postcount=68
    [16b] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2226213&postcount=71
    [17] - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2226793&postcount=73

    More material can be found in the following - http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99751

    Then, you stated:
    Brother vooks, you had asked specifically:
    And this was answered as asked: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2226933&postcount=80

    Therefore, your question, as asked, was answered specifically, and given Scripture [persons of the distant past [from Genesis in fact]] and also in modernity [recent past until now]. The amount of believing persons is not relevant to any Scriptural doctrine, nor is the amount of historical record beyond that of Scripture. Any historical source, is always secondary to the foundation, Scripture, on any and all matters.

    For instance, I do not believe Michael Archangel [The Son of the Father, Eternal Deity, God, Uncreated Creator, I AM, YHVH Emmanuel, etc] to be 'Jesus', simply because historically Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon & hundreds of other powerful reformers, taught it &c, including Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Millerites, Adventists and also Seventh-day Adventists, etc, etc, but I believe it based upon the Scriptural texts themselves alone through prayerful study apart from all the rest, and even before coming to find all the rest in history. As to the latter point, the mere fact that no documentation can be found in the periods of 150 AD - 1400ish AD on that subject [Michael Archangel, at least that I could immediately find, there may be just haven't yet found it] is by no means an indication that it was not so taught or believed by the Church in the wilderness [Revelation 12] period. There was a great deal lost, historically, by persecution, proscription, etc.

    I do notice, yet once again, brother vooks, that my question in return
    was not directly addressed, in any place, like so many others already asked you [and all] as noted above and elsewhere, and not only on this subject, but on many others.


    etc.

    Brother vooks, by latching onto the words in ministry magazine [which is not any source of foundation for me, or any true Seventh-day Adventist, but Scripture is the Foundation [even as seen in the article itself: "... The writings of Ellen White also contain much material dealing with Christ in the heavenly sanctuary (e.g., The Great Controversy, pp. 409-432, 479-491, 582- 678). ... These writings, however, were not the source of our pioneers' doctrine of the sanctuary, rather, they confirmed and supplemented the ideas that the early Adventists were finding in the Bible itself. Today we recognize the same relationship: the writings of Ellen White provide confirmation of our doctrine of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary and supplement our understanding of it. ...

    ... Our pioneers found it by diligent searching of the Word and became motivated by it. ..."]] and emphasizing them, "this new doctrine", without understanding what they mean Scripturally, simply belies the lack of Scriptural knowledge of specific texts upon your part brother vooks, but not ours. It was there the whole time:

    And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. - Mark 1:27

    And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, [is]? - Acts 17:19

    No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. - Matthew 9:16

    Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. - Matthew 9:17

    Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old. - Matthew 13:52

    No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. - Mark 2:21

    And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. - Mark 2:22

    And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old. - Luke 5:36

    And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. - Luke 5:37

    But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. - Luke 5:38

    No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. - Luke 5:39

    A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. - John 13:34

    Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. - 1 John 2:7

    Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. - 1 John 2:8

    And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. - 2 John 1:5
     
  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Brother vooks, according to a basic definition of the term you have used to describe myself, a son of God, is debasing, incorrect and blasphemous [since I am made in the image of God; Genesis 1:26,27, 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7, etc]:

    "Primate" [basic def.]:

    "...Primates arose from ancestors that lived in the trees of tropical forests ..." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate

    Another definition [which is also contrary to Scripture, History and Science]:

    "... Primates evolved in the trees; the term for this is arboreal. Some primates still live in the trees, as the pair of gibbons shown below. Others, such as humans, gave up life in the trees in favor of living on the ground. However, all primates share the legacy of being tree dwellers. ..." - http://www.science.sjsu.edu/bio101/What is a Primate.htm

    And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. - Romans 1:23

    To think as such is a false, satanic and evolutionary mindset, compromised to the rotten core, which is contrary to the whole of Scripture, the Everlasting Gospel itself and most importantly to Jesus Christ Himself, as well as History and the detailed facts of Science, as may be seen here - http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99684

    and most especially here - http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/biblical-creation-history/id1593499


    While the portion about "primate" is clearly demeaning, degrading, derogatory, debasing, demoralizing, disgusting and of the devil, I do thank you for the parts about "intelligent" and "capable of comprehension" in the comment however.
     
    #84 One Baptism, May 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2015
  5. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Are you done reading the document I shared on my thread?
    Here; http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99811

    You may play dumb or are deliberately obtuse, you know what I mean. INVESTIGATIVE JUDGEMENT was invented by Adventists and legitimized by Ellen White visions. Hiram recanted when common sense got the better of him and so are the other guys. Ellen White was left running with it. And you as EGW disciple are just worshipping at her altar.

    Does it bother you that since creation till 1840s NOBODY held that belief?

    Specifically,
    1. NOBODY has ever taught of confessed sins defiling heaven
    2. NOBODY has ever taught of confessed sins being transferred to the earthly sanctuary
    3. NOBODY has ever taught of heavenly compartment nor Jesus shifting from one to the other in 1844 or any other time
    4. Nobody has ever taught of Daniel 8:14 sanctuary being a 'heavenly sanctuary'

    So the pioneers never discovered something NEW, they revised EXISTING interpretations. Which means all EXISTING interpretation of these points were FALSE. In short, there was no TRUTH in the world till 1840s that is for over 1800 years of Christianity.

    One Baptist, there were no custodians of this 'light' for all these years. God suffered His children to believe lies till EGW showed up.​
     
    #85 vooks, May 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2015
  6. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Your godess taught that Negroes descended from apes vide beastiality so am sorry I can't understand your hypocrisy
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99286
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You fluff and false accusation was exposed and debunked on that thread #75 and we all know it.

    You simply "ran away" when you failed to show anything of the sort from Ellen White but rather were confronted with -

    [FONT=&quot]"Christ came to this earth with a message of mercy and forgiveness. He laid the foundation for a religion by which Jew and Gentile, black and white, free and bond, are linked together in one common brotherhood, recognized as equal in the sight of God."
    1 Testimonies, vol. 7. P. 225

    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Here on this thread we are talking about the judgment - and all you can do is run away "again" back to your bait-and-switch model - w[FONT=&quot]here you were[FONT=&quot] already debunked.

    [FONT=&quot]In Rev 1[FONT=&quot]2 yo[FONT=&quot]ur method w[FONT=&quot]as [FONT=&quot]exposed.

    [FONT=&quot]in Christ,

    [FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]

    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
     
  8. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Preach all that and rabidly oppose interracial marriages:tonofbricks:
     
  9. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    I have been asking for proof of Investigative Judgement theory from Chritian history and I got none. The garbage was derived after the 1844 Disappointment. It was a face-saving exercise.


    One. Of its tenets is defiling/polluting of some sections of heaven called Holy of Holies by confessed sins whose cleansing started in 1844.

    Let us ask, is there ANY scripture pointing to cleansing of a heavenly 'sanctuary'?
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    For those using Bible-avoidance - this may not be of interest ...

    But for those interested in "investigative Judgment" that we see in Dan 7

    AFTER the 4 world empires in vs 1-8 appear - and after the fall of pagan Rome in vs 9, and after the little horn power arises that rules during the dark ages of 1260 years

    1. Books are opened.
    2. Court sits and many many beings are there - not just God.
    3. The Father is presiding - And Christ comes to the Court room - Judgment once it is setup.
    4. Once that Judgment is ended - and judgment passes in favor of the saints -- the persecution of the saints ends
    5. And we have the second coming.


    [FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

    Dan 7
    “I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.


    And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

    Dan 7
    23 “Thus he said:
    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’


    ===============================

    So then what are the "details" in that judgment - what issues are they reviewing to come to their conclusions "according to the text". (So probably not of interest if one is using Bible-avoidance with the text.)

    ======================================

    Catholics will often complain that the "Bible is not enough" that they need an ECF or early "Catholic" source - to also instruct them on the same point or they will not listen to what the Bible says ...

    But even the Catholics will not go to the extreme of calling the Bible 'garbage' just because they do not find it in their man-made-traditions.

    So then what "master" or "spirit" is Vooks serving that leads him to a position that even Catholics will not stoop to follow?

    I think that question is being raised by Vooks' methods at this point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #90 BobRyan, May 28, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2015
  11. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    They scraped the dump site of reason to excuse failed return in 1844. All you should have done is to name names outside EGW who taught this doctrine your gutters are calling NEW.

    Out of my kindness, I have broken down its core components;
    1. Who has ever taught that confessed sins were transferred onto the sacrifice and then by sprinkling of the blood to the altar?
    2. Who has ever taught that Jesus blood defiled heavenly sanctuary?
    3. What defiles heaven, is it the sin records or the sins transferred to Jesus or BOTH?
    4. Who has ever taught a heavenly pre-advent forensic audit?

    BobRyan worshipping at EGW's altars would rather eat bullets than admit nobody taught this prior to EGW. He has been tying himself in knots and throwing idle verse hoping they will obscure the truth.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Why could no one else ever find it <<apparent>>?

    because there is nothing in Revelation 20 of the sort <apparent>.

    In any case, the Day of Atonement 'Feast' was the mid-year mini-passover. It never had historical origins like the passover.

    And both Spring and Autumn feasts are for the remembrance of God's JUDGMENT, not one less or more than the other.

    Now just like in the passover the feast culminated in the Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering in view of the Resurrection from the dead of the Promised One the Messiah, just so in the Day of Atonement feast the 9th day of the Seventh Month was for the goat which had to be slaughtered before it could go free to LIVE typified with the feast of the tenth day of the First Month upon which LIFE triumphed and a FIT MAN as type of the Promise Messiah entered the "Wilderness" or "Eden" or "Paradise" all three name-descriptions of Resurrected LIFE through the Promised Messiah.

    The symbolism was the same in both feasts as it was the same in all and every Divine Institution of Remembrance and Celebration in the Scriptures.

    Jesus declared "ALL the Scriptures" "fullfilled" : by Him, in Him, through Him by, in, and through his Resurrection and BEFORE He would ascend into the heavens. God already had Christ rested on his own Right Hand in Heavenly Glory of his Majesty "WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD" IN HIS GRAVE IN THE EARTH ON THE EARTH.

    And though He would ascend to the seventh heaven, He only ascended to created spheres and status and reality, FAR ABOVE EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED not only in the present dispensation and world but in that which is to yet come : STILL, ONLY CREATED GLORY.

    Because by the un-created Glory of the Father, God : "RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD".

    Look into Jesus' tomb with faith's eye to behold the DIVINE.

    Look up into the heavens: "This same Jesus which is taken up from you (in the flesh and body of the same Jesus who died and was buried) shall so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO into heaven."

    'In heaven above' is temporary and therefore in essence, earthly. But our Salvation is God's DIVINE work. You will not find it in 'heaven'. It is to be found on earth in the death and Life of Our Passover the Lamb of God slaughtered from the foundation of the world.



     
    #92 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 29, 2015
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  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    If this were not the most exemplary forum on internet and the least narrow-minded and dictatorial, I would have revealed more of my many faceted character to the gentleman 'Vooks' ---which would not be as tolerant and civil as OneBaptism's.

     
  14. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Go ahead,Make my day
    Vooks is not one of your imaginary opponents in a debate which you so u cleverly make dumb so you can win your own arguments. I will call out hard and fast and as often
     
    #94 vooks, May 30, 2015
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  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that emotional response is mere fluff.

    For those of us who read and accept the Bible -- the "Bible matters"

    The point remains.

    In the "details above" we see the pre-advent judgment consisting of evidence recorded and being reviewed in God's courtroom at the end of which "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

    The point remains -

    the Bible matters.

    ad hominem and emotionalism do not matter -- they are mere fluff.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Yes BobRyan,
    'Details' hid for thousands of years till Ellen White happened:tonofbricks:

    Try and think. What is the difference between a Christian living BEFORE and AFTER 1844 when IJ started? Is either at a bigger risk of damnation? Is God's expectations over either any different? Is either of them privileged than the other?

    The answer is NO.
    Which begs the question; why would God hide it from generations of believers seeing it is equally (ir)relevant?
    When you grow up and outgrow EGW lunacy you will be be thanking God for each moment of your life. Till then, you are aimlessly wandering in this life full of fear and uncertainty about your future
     
    #96 vooks, May 31, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2015
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Open your Bible "and READ".

    The text quoted above was available for 1000's of years - your whining about the details in Dan 7 does not "make Dan 7 go away".

    Try sola scriptura -- try reading the details.

    Or not.. you have free will -- the Bible rejecting model that you are choosing is freely available to you.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    And that truth was hid for thousands of years until Ellen White showed up:tonofbricks:
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible that you flee from Dan 7 Bible details because you have a non-Bible "agenda" here?

    Is it possible that the dark ages model "less Bible the better" suits your agenda "better"??

    Though you post as if you "imagine" that the Bible was written by Ellen White and this is why you are so Bible-adverse to Daniel 7's Bible "details" - the rest of us know better.

    I will wait while you demonstrated for all of us that you can never tire of more of your "fluff posts" then I will post the Daniel 7 "details" again - irrefutable as they are. It is clearly the "choke point" in your agenda - where all you have is "circle back to more fluff" in response to Daniel 7.

    How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #99 BobRyan, Jun 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2015
  20. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Question was, who has ever taught Investigative Judgement outside Ellen White?

    Answer is nobody.
    Daniel 7 judgement is not OF the saints. Only a biased Adventist would demand that saints are judged inside judgement of successive kingdoms. Only an Adventist would demand Daniel 8 sanctuary cleansed is different from that defiled by the little horn. Only thawed brains can entertain that.

    How you can liberally quote 300 years of 'Protestant Reformation' not to mention Catholicism history on sabbath only to suddenly be possessed by blind,deaf and mute spirit when IJ is the subject:laugh: is all too evident.

    IJ was 'made up' to avoid admitting the mental,spiritual and logical depravity behind 1844 second advent
     
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