Irresistable Grace

Do those who receive the call love God before they receive the call?

That is, do those pre-called "predestined ones" who according to Calvin are "totally depraved" love God or Jesus while in Total Depravity?

OR, do they come to love God only after the call (like so many do)?

Are the pre-called "elect" the only ones the call is intended for and thus the only ones who can respond from a position of Total Depravity?

Doesn't that tell us that Jesus came to seek and to save ONLY those who are "Pre-destined", and not ALL the LOST! Or, is it only the Pre-destined that are lost, Totally Depraved?

[ January 12, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

You take it wrong. Again, this is a very basic part of evangelical theology. It is remarkable that you do not understand this. Whiel I am not Christ and you are not Nicodemus, it reminds of Christ's response: Are you a teacher of Israel and do not understand these things???

Again, simply remarkable beyond belief!!! YOu are probably in a place where you would be better suited posting in teh other religions forum. Your views as you express them are out of the evangelical realm it seems to me.

On Romans 8, you must deal with the point of the text that you ignore. Whichever way you put it, predestination precedes justification and call(and therefore precedes any "choice") and leads without fail to glorification. For those who dispute the existence of an effectual call, this verse is indisputable evidence to the contrary. There is a call that unfailingly results in glorification. Most theologians name it the effectual call because it is effectual.

[ January 12, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Since you do not seem to agree, would you quote the reference and text where in Jesus's own words he says that Grace saves? I know the epistles say it, but I don't find it in Jesus own words.

 

Okay. John 6:64, 65. I will quote only the red letters:

But there are some of you who do not believe.....For this reason I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been given to him from My Father.

Paul defines grace as anything that is a gift--anything that we receive from God that is not merited or earned or worked for. (Romans 11--"...if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." And Eph. 2--"..by grace you have been saved....not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works") Paul uses grace and gift synonymously, and it is something that does not come from us and excludes any works or merit on our part.

So when Christ says that our belief (or our ability to come to Him) is GIVEN to us by the Father, He is saying exactly the same thing that Paul is saying when he says that salvation is by grace.

Anything that we don't deserve, that we don't earn, that we are given by God is by definition grace. Hence the terms saving grace, sanctifying grace, common grace, etc. We do not deserve (or merit) any of these things, and yet we freely receive them as gifts from a God out of His gracious nature. All these gracious gifts "show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

[ January 12, 2003, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Every Christian is grateful for the Gospel call that reached them. We point to Romans 8:30 because we know this was written for the most part to the church.

Just because God 'forknows' certain things does not mean that he was involved in implimenting them; otherwise, we make the Lord the Author of sin. He saves only those who He knows will have believed and trusted in Him. [Romans 8:29]

Calvin often tries to build his theology on one or two verses, while ignoring the rest of pertinent Scripture. My examples are: Acts 5:40, John 5:40 and King Agrippa who said, 'Almost thou persuadest me to become a Christian.' These three persons or groups happen to be people who were outside of the fold of Christ; in other words lost souls. Clearly, the call of the Gospel went out to them, but the difference here is they 'resisted' that call to faith. Hell's gates were opened wide at their earthly departure, no because of any twisted, autocratic election, but because of their continued rebellion against the Triune God.

Again, Calvin and his wondering, bewildered, followers must take all of the Lord's truth, rather than trying to convince the rest of us to snatch a verse here or there.

 

So are you going to answer the question here Ray or just blow by it??? The question is, If everyone is called (as you say), then is everyone saved (universalism)??? Ropm 8:30 teaches that all who are called are then justified and glorified. What is your position?

 

And not all Non-Calvinists are Arminians...

Jacob.

 

Pastor Larry,

I absolutely do not believe in universalism meaning universal salvation. I believe the vast majority of people will end up in the lake of fire. Only those who believe and trust in Jesus will come to everlasting life with Him.

Thanks for asking the question.

Ray

 

Then you are admitting that there is an effectual call and a general call in salvation??

 

Purity of life should be the goal of every Christian. John in talking to the church says in I John 1:10 that every believer has sinned since salvation, [I John 1:10] but we are challenged to live above sins. If any Christian sins our Advocate Jesus [I John 2:1 a b c d e f] intercedes for us keeping us under His atonement.

Each side does not hate his brethren [I John 3:14]. Both sides hate the apparent misunderstanding, as we see it, of His truth. [III John verse 11 a b c]

In Jude verse 4 d does not say "passively and nicely talk about the faith," but rather ' . . . earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.' Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, the Greek scholar's translation of the aspect of the above verse goes like this. 'beseeching (you) to contend with intensity and determination for the faith once for all entrusted into the safe-keeping of the saints.'

Thanks but we all know to 'love our neighbor.' Look at this side of the coin also.

 

I wish I could agree with an Effectual Call as a Calvinist believes it. There is but one general call to human beings because of the justice and impartiality of Almighty God. Those who hear and believe are saved and are counted among His elect; those who refuse the One on the middle Cross after hearing the Gospel determine their own destiny. Rev. H.A. Ironside once said this. 'No where in the Bible are people ever predestinated to go to Hell, and no where are people predestinated to go to Heaven.' H.A. Ironside "In the Heavenlies", addresses on Ephesians (Loiseaux Brothers, 1937), p. 34 As I recall Rev. Ironside believed himself to be a Calvinist. I guess he was one of those hybred ones.

 

Btw good point Jacob - We're not all Calvinistic dogs or Arminian swine

Larry - i have a problem with your effectual call and general call - mainly because it establishes a two tier Christianity (if the second tier even exists) - and to my mind it lessens evangelical fervour

Mainly Larry I just want you to point out a general grace called Christian - Think of a few because then you have to tell me what seperates them.

See to my viewpoint the grace is equal to all mankind - I dont see absolute universal love and justice

And wierdly Larry for a while I was going to agree with you on multiple graces - but something is crying out - something is poking me - and I get that feeling God's tapping me on the shoulder - saying something - I think I'll have to go one grace alone

Ill have to think about it

 

Sularis,

I know you posted your remarks to Larry, but I thought I'd take a stab...

"i have a problem with your effectual call and general call - mainly because it establishes a two tier Christianity (if the second tier even exists) - and to my mind it lessens evangelical fervour"

Since the effectual call is what brings one to becoe a christian, I don't see how it creates a two tier christiaity. Perhaps you mean two tiered humanity?

As to the lessening of the evangelical fervour, empirically that isn't true, evn were it true in theory, which it certainly is not. On average Calvanist and Arminian churches will be found to be equally fervent in their evangelism.

"Mainly Larry I just want you to point out a general grace called Christian - Think of a few because then you have to tell me what seperates them."

There is not such thing. No one becomes a christian as a result of the general call. The Calvanist understanding of the Bibl is that no one responds in faith to the general call. All those who are Christians are so becuase of a specific, effectual call to individuals. I believe you may have misuderstood Larry at this point.

"See to my viewpoint the grace is equal to all mankind - I dont see absolute universal love and justice"

The general call is universal, and, since God would accept any who repsonded to it, it is a real, authentic call. That is an expression of absolute universal love.

A subsequent effectual call does not negate that.

"I think I'll have to go one grace alone"

I think you might be getting hooked on semantics a bit. In one sense there can only be one grace as there is only one God. In anoter sense though the expressions of God's grace are many, and may be identified by their effects. For example:

When God shows grace by providing food or shelter, it is providential grace.

When God shows grace by transfroming us and making us more Christ like, then that is sanctifying grace.

When God elects someone to salvation, that is saving grace.

And so on.

I hope that clears up things for you.

 

Sularis; "in my mind it lessens evangelical fervor" Have you ever heard of Wm. Carey,who is refered to as the father of modern missions? How about Judson,Mueler,Taylor just to name a few,all Calvinists by the way! If your statement were true then please tell me why Calvinists like John Piper have a missions budget of over $800,000.oo per year at his church?