Is Baptism required for Salvation?

The Holy Ghost baptism is that blood. The water baptism is just to answer a good conscious toward God, not the putting away the filth of the flesh.

 

Just exactly where does it say they were "Baptized by the Holy Ghost"? It says they received the Holy Ghost. It does not say they were Baptized by the Holy Ghost. Now somebody wanted some water so they could be BAPTIZED WITH WATER after recieving the Holy Ghost.

Nice try Brother Bob, but you failed again.

 

Point is, "may" here does not carry an idea of conditional fulfillment..."may" doesn't mean "possibly" here...it's a done deal. The Greek sense here is very clear. And our use of "may" can change over several hundred years.

I was just pointing out the need to be consistent in not forcing a reading the Bible doesn't give us.

And your caps lock seems to have stuck on you mojo...you might want to have that fixed...I use several faithful translations of scripture...and none of them are of Satan. Let's avoid attacking versions.

 

I think its safe to say that there are those here on this board that intend only to create arguments over their extrabiblical theology. In the interest in what is biblical and Christ-like, I say we all do our best to avoid such devisive pursuits.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to resist the temption to laugh over such parsing of words.

That is the same as saying "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish" is not definite.

If "Should" means maybe, maybe not like "may" in Acts 3:19 means might or might not, then we have lost the bedrock verse of our beliefs.

 

I am in disagreement. Here is why.

At Luke 22:50 we read Jesus saying “This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (ASV). Here, Jesus institutes a New Covenant that is to be based upon His blood. Starting at Hebrews 7:22b we see “Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant” (NASB) and the train of thought continues to Hebrews 8:6-7: “But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second” (ASV). The New Testament acknowledges between Judaism and Christianity only two covenants: an Old Covenant and a “second covenant” = “New Covenant” based upon Jesus Christ.

At Matthew 27:50-1a we read “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn from top to bottom” (TNIV). The temple curtain separated the rest of the temple from the innermost part of the temple, which had the presence of God and could only be entered by one certain priest on stringent conditions. When that temple curtain tore, that signified the end of the Old Covenant; God ripped that barrier apart Himself from Heaven’s direction down. This is important, because it says much about the relevance of one of the first people saved under the New Covenant.

Originally, he was a party to mocking the Lord Jesus on the cross per Matthew 27:44 “And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way” (ESV). The end of the thief’s account is as follows from Luke 23:41-3 starting with his words “`And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.’ And he was saying, `Jesus, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom!’ And He said to him, `Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise’” (NASB) -- the majority of the oldest manuscripts do not have "Lord" here. Although this thief was originally antagonistic to Jesus, upon this thief’s repentance, Jesus assured the man of being in the same place as righteous Jesus Himself after death!

When we turn over to the continuation of the crucifixion after Jesus’ death, we find out that after Jesus had died, those hung on crosses next to Him remained alive:
----at John 19:30 Jesus dies
----at John 19:31 the Jewish leaders asked that those on the crosses would have their legs broken to speed up their deaths so that the crosses would be vacant the next day, and
----at John 19:32 both of Jesus’ neighbors had their legs broken.
Now remember, at the very moment of Jesus’ death, the Old Covenant was literally ripped from top to bottom, but the penitent thief was still alive. The penitent thief, however, was promised a place with righteous Jesus by Jesus Himself. Hence, when the penitent thief died, he was not saved by anything other than the New Covenant that all Christians are saved under.

This instance is very important to understanding how we are saved. Romans 4:5 states “And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (ESV). The penitent thief had no opportunity to do anything to confirm his faith. While Romans 10:9 requires willingness to confess Jesus as Lord, Luke 23:41-3 as originally written1 shows not even this action -- the thief recognized Jesus’ authority over a kingdom, so no doubt would have confessed Him as Lord. The only recorded things the thief did here was show realization that his sins deserved punishment and call on Jesus to treat him with mercy -- and Jesus gave him salvation.

The thief was an exteme example of salvation by faith. No doubt, the thief would have gladly been baptized, or directly called Jesus "Lord" before a congregation of people. However, these opportunities did not exist, but because of a faith that would have, he was saved anyway.

 

I believe that repentance would follow from belief that Jesus Christ is Who He and the Bible say He is. If Jesus Christ came to save sinners from their guilt, and we believe He was needed, it follows that we acknowledge our guilt. If Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is in agreement with the Father, that means He is not pleased by our guilt. If we believe that He is Lord, we need to turn from those sins and repent. Repentance is a choice to turn away from sin and start being obedient in attitude to the Lord and simultaneously follows from faith.

 

Matthew, chapter 3

"11": I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Only place I ever read where the Holy Ghost baptism comes from. It is not me trying it is God who did it.

 

Well, the thing is, Jesus knew when the penitent thief would die. He knew that the penitent thief would die after He did. Hence, after Jesus died, the penitent thief died under the New Covenant. Jesus said the penitent was going to be going to the same place He is after the penitent thief died, and because the thief died after Jesus, He died under the New Covenant.

My point about how the thief got saved under the New Covenant by faith without doing a single thing -- although he would have with opportunity because of that faith -- stands.

 

Many Christians earnestly desire to serve the Lord from the core of their hearts and do not need compulsion. They cannot wait to get busy with their Christian lives and be baptized because they want to start serving the Lord.

Mman: the above is one thing that bothers me about the implication about `Why were they baptized if it did not save them?'

I see it raising two important questions: Do you do anything to obey the Lord for any other reason than to avoid eternal barbecue? Do you do anything for the Lord because you earnestly desire to?

I am not being mean, but that is honestly what I see when I read these types of things from you and from others.

 

This is a prophetic promise. But nowhere in the Gospels does it show Jesus actually fulfilling this prophechy. So where is the scripture that shows Jesus actually baptizing with the Holy Spirit? Some say John 3:22.

Now lets fastforward to John 3 verses 22 and 23

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

No proof that Jesus was baptizing with the Holy Spirit. And since we have the imperative and in the following verse, we see that John was Baptizing people as well.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

If Jesus was baptizing with the Holy Spirit (which it does not obviously say) then we have to conclude with the imperative AND that John was also baptizing with the Holy Spirit. Since that is not plausible, then Jesus is baptizing with Water and not the Holy Spirit.

This falls more into the line of 1 Cor 3:10 which states:

This Baptism of the Holy Spirit will occur after we have died and will be undergo the trial by fire. God will envelope you with the Holy Spirit and his Fire. God will burn away those things that made you imperfect in the eyes of god which are the wood, hay, stubble. And after this trial by fire if your Christian house contained gold, silver, precious stones then you will be saved and have eternal life.

Paul was given a prophetic vision of what is going to happen to a person when they die or at least what is going happen on "The Day".

This does not negate Jesus' redemptiive work on the Cross. Jesus' redemptive work only forgives us of our sins. His redemptive work does not make us perfect. His redemptive work does not remove our bad attitudes and other little vices that are not neccesarily considered a sin.

I have a very large list of those things that make us imperfect so we cannot enter heaven without undergoing the trying by fire.

If you want to see the list, then start a new thread entitled "Wood, Hay, and Stubble" and I will gladly oblidge you.

God bless and go live the Gospel!

 

Peter says Baptism does save you.

Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

 

Well, 1 Peter 3:20 ends with water. 1 Peter 3:21 describes water baptism.

Many people like to stop after the first part of the verse, and you misquoted the passage -- here, let me put in emphasis what you left out:
“which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism| (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, |but an appeal to God for a good conscience|,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (ASV|KJV|NASB|KJV).
As you can see, what you left out is relevant. You can check the NASB of this verse at www.biblegateway.com to verify that you did indeed leave something off.

When we get into water, it usually washes whatever dirt we have on our bodies off. This seems to be the most natural understanding -- Peter was clarifying that getting in the water does NOT save us. What does save us? Our "appeal to God for a good conscience" meaning a realization of our guilt and a desire for God to cleanse us; this is repentance, and it gets us into the water, and this is what saves us.

 

I think you do err. The baptism happened when Jesus died on the cross.

KJMatt.20

"22": But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

"23": And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

We couldn't receive the Holy Ghost Baptism until Jesus died and that is why they were only baptized with the water unto repentance but when Jesus died they were told to tarry in Jerusalem until they had been endured with the power on High. The Holy Ghost Baptism.
After Jesus died and the Day of Pentecost then it changed to we receive the Holy Ghost Baptism first and then the water baptism, as in the case of Corneilus. peace

If you do not believe you have the Holy Ghost now then I say you are missing out on a great part of Salvation. blessings,

 

That is a parallel. "Flesh" parallels "water", showing that "born of water" means born of the Flesh. I used to believe like you, until I noticed this parallel. The distinction is between flesh and spirit, but then it is also between water and spirit; but never between flesh and water! They are the same, here.

What He is saying is the same point illustrated throughout the rest of the NT. The Israelites back then thought they were saved by their physical heritage: hance, their birth by "water". So v.3 He says "born again" (He does not mention "water" at this point). Nicodemus thinks this means "going back into the womb" in v.4. THEN Jesus explains in v.5 "born of water and the spirit". Born of water is the first birth, and born of the spirit is to be born AGAIN. The point is not a command to be born the first time, and then be born the second time in order to be saved. It is assumed that if we are talking about a real person who is alive and needs to be saved; he was already born of water. The point is, that that is not enough, but he must also be born of the spirit. Even if you look at your above examples, they are true, aren't they? Only this redundancy is made because it is a literary parallel, between the two types of births; while your ewxamples have nothing to do with a birth, so the first birth would never be paralleled with them.

That said, the new birth, by which a person passes from death to life is a spiritual transaction, and thus not a physical act like baptism. So the baptism that saves, or the true spirit baptism being discussed now is ilustrated in 1 Cor.12:13 "By one spirit are we baptized INTNE BODY". THAT is the "baptism" that saves, and the water baptism is a symbol of it, that was supposed to mark the initial act of receiving life, but because of the change of the Church over the centuries, it occurs later.

 

I was not speaking of Holy Ghost baptism. That should have been clear from my post. Baptism (water) is a work. We are not saved by works. For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works. That means not of baptism. If baptism is required for salvation, then we are not saved by the grace of God. Tht is plain to see.
DHK