Featured Is Baptism the New Circumcision?

No where in the bible do you see anyone wait until they are at the age of reason

While you see entire households (including babies) be baptized and new adult believers

I was saved on the cross
I was saved when I was baptized
I am being saved with gods grace he gives me daily
I will be saved when our lord comes again

 

Circumcision is about being set apart.

When we have a circumcised heart, it means the Spirit sets us apart. We are different; we are set apart from other people because we have the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

Circumcision of the flesh was a seal of faith.

We now receive a seal, the Holy Spirit, because of faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

Colossians 2:11 is about living by the Spirit and not the flesh, living by the Spirit given to us by Christ.

Infants do not live by the Spirit and put off the flesh. Infants do not yet understand. Faith comes from hearing the message, being taught, convinced, and persuaded. See Romans 10:14; Colossians 1:5, 7; 2 Timothy 3:14; and 2 Corinthians 5:11.

 

This is an excellent post, Scarlett! I find myself saying that quite often to you.

 

There is absolutely no evidence in the NT of any babies being baptized.

If you are depending on your water baptism to save you, you are still in your sins.

 

Getting your doctrine from Calvin, history's greatest example of an Old Testament Christian? Might I suggest the New Testament instead?

 

I have already posted why earlier.
God made the promise to the forefathers and their descendents.
Even when the Jews did not obey God, they were still considered God's people.

Those who believed in God in the Old Testament did not each individually receive the Holy Spirit, as believers do now in the New Testament.
We are not God’s children anymore as the Jews were because of ancestry and works of the law like circumcision and the observance of special days, etc. We are God’s children by faith in Jesus and obedience to his teachings. Infants cannot do those things.

 

Paedobaptists use that scripture as a proof text for infant baptism; in fact, it is just the opposite. Jesus blessed the little children; He did not baptize them. This scripture is a good basis for infant dedication, but not baptism.

 

That is right. I have found that fact with many scriptures used to try to support false doctrines…the very scriptures they use can be carefully studied to show their error.

 

Yes this is true.

ok.

I've been trying to say that forever.

Yes even now as we are partakers in Christ's divine life through baptism.

Yes I think that passage is clear.

Yes this is true.

Yes hense the term "Believer's Baptism" Though baptism was never called "believers baptism" in the NT but just Baptism. Certainly believers were baptized but never was it called "believers baptism" in the NT.

Yes as we can see by the mix of people being delivered out of Egypt and they were required to be circumcized.

Possibly. Circumcision happens in other parts of the world to include Female circumcision. Abraham was the first person to enter into a covenant with God requiring circumcision.

And forshadows the NT people who are called out (ecclesia) into a special covenant with God as a family and community. Thus Christianity is not just and individual faith but a community faith lived in community not solitarily.

Yes they were.

I don't think baptist would have a problem with the very last statement. However, to say that baptism confered grace to the one being baptized is too much for baptist.

 

I read all your posts and I believe Scarlet has most ably responded and demonstrated your position is erroneous. However, I will comment on your post.

In the above artificial distinction you have made there is a big problem. Abraham, not Moses is regarded by the Jews as the father of Israel. Circumcision therefore to all his household, including Ishmael and Esau is consistent with the promise of a nation from his own loins. So the idea that it is "much larger application than the former" is simply incorrect.

The connection is made crystal clear. It's only connection, its only value is an external "sign" of "the faith" already in possession. Colossians 2:12 makes it clear that it is a sign of a REGENERATED BELIEVING heart. Even the Old Testament (as you quoted) makes it clear it is the sign of a REGENERATED believing heart. It is not a sign of faith not yet received but faith already received. This leads us to infant male circucmision and I will make that point next.

What you don't seem to grasp is that a "sign" is a figure and the writer of hebrews claims that there were many such signs under the Old Covenant. For example, sacrifices are called a "shadow" and such sacrifices preceded both the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants did they not (Gen. 4)??? Yes, they did. But they are still but a "shadow." A "shadow" only provides FORM but does not provide SUBSTANCE (Heb. 10:1) and the "FORM" cannot obtain anything much less literally remit sins (Heb. 10:4). The substance is found only in what casts the shadow - which is Jesus Christ (Col. 2:16-17) and it as in circucumcision, such "signs" avail only those whose faith is ALREADY in the substance - Acts 10:43.

Circumcision of infant males at 8 days old is simply a more expanded "shadow" or type even under the Old Covenant. Remember, jesus told Nicodemus that he must be "BORN AGAIN" as an old man? Regardless of the age when faith embraces the substance of shadows there is a BIRTH of a SPIRITUAL CHILD. The circumcision of 8 day old Jewish male infants pictures the very exact same thing as the circumcision of Abraham. The doctrine of the sign is expounded in Abraham whereas the more expanded doctrine is visualized in the infant circumcision which can be directly applied also to Abraham, because when Abraham was spiritually transformed from a Heathen idolatrous worshipper in Ur of the Chaldees to a believer in the promise of a coming redeemer "seed" (Gal. 3:17) he was at that precise moment of transformation became a spiritual infant in the kingdom of God needing to grow and mature spiritually from that point forward.

If you have not understood what I have said, then let me say it clearly - infant circucmison is a "shadow" of new birth experienced at the point of conversion from unbelief to belief and so infant circumcision is merely a more expanded "sign" of the very same truth.

The problem with your interpretation is that it is based upon jerking this text out of its overall context. Look at the scriptures that precede it as well as follow it.

The preceding context sets the stage for the reader to realize the COMPLETENESS in Christ by faith without ADDITIONS -

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Beginning in verse 11 to verse 17 that completeness is without the "shadow" of the Old Testament ceremonial laws including circumcision as the substance (Christ and his completed work on the cross) makes the "shadow" obselete:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Verses 11-13 deal particular with both circumcision and baptism and the one thing they have in common with each other as signs and that is the death or cutting off the flesh and new life. Both externally are signs of the cutting off of the sinful nature - the old flesh in regard to the NEW LIFE of the INWARD MAN.

Note his langauge in verse 11 as he introduces the new inward cirucumcision made without hands - meaning something only God can do as no human hands can accomplish this internal miracle of God. Romans 4:11 proves this work without hands does not occur simeltaneous with the external act. The external was a picture of what only God can do and thus the external NEVER accomplished what it pictured and neither does baptism.

What accomplishes this is "faith" that had to precede both circucmision and baptism as demonstrated in Abraham and so like circumision, baptism follows this internal act of God.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Baptism like circumcision externally signifies identification with Christ's death to sin and His resurrected regenerative life but it is "through" internal "faith of (subjective genitive - produced by) the operation of God" from which our spiritual life originates and from which we actually obtain remission of sins, rather than from external acts of baptism or circumcision. The same power (operation) of God that raised Jesus from the grave is the same power behind our faith which results in spiritual life and remission of sins.

Or let me paraphrase it this way. It is through baptism and circumcision that we SIGNIFY identification with death to sin and spiritual life, but it is through faith produced by the power of God, (the same power that literally raised Jesus from the Grave) we are quickened (made alive/born again) together with him and by which we literally receive remission of sins.

Paul cannot mean that faith produces eternal life and remission of sin CONTEMPORANEOUS with the act of circumcision or baptism as Romans 4:11 debunks that interpretation as false. Only that both FOLLOW inward conversion as an external "sign" of something already "had" previous to the ceremonial act. Both outwardly IDENTIFY the believer with the substance of faith - Christ - Acts 10:43 - and salvation obtained by the power of God not through shadows.

 

Ah, but He did not. I believe what the General Baptists say in their confession of faith: "We believe that infants are in the covenant of Gods grace." This is consistent also with what the Quakers believe; that's why the Quakers give their infants associate membership in the church. Infants are already in the covenant of God's grace; no ritual puts them there. God's grace is much more expansive. It includes all the innocent -- infants, the retarded, etc. They are covered by the covenant of God's grace apart from any ritual. Water baptism in the NT is a sign of spiritual regeneration that has already taken place because of a person's coming to faith. To use it otherwise is to completely change its meaning and purpose.

However, I can understand how you feel. That's why the CAC allows liberty of conscience in this matter. I also struggled with this for quite some time.

 

Because God made the Covenant with Abraham, that his descendents would be blessed.

The Jews even had slaves that were Jewish. Slaves were close to the family, why should they not obey the laws of the land.

Water baptism is not an outward sign as many say. Water baptism is not a sign like circumcision. Water baptism leaves no physical sign. If an infant is baptized, they only know this when they grow up if their parents tell them, or if they find the church papers stating it.
However, when a believer is water baptized, it is a promise to God, a pledge, to die to the sins of the world and rise up to walk as Jesus did.

Jesus says to become like little children. That statement alone should give you assurance that children are in God’s graces. It sounds as if you are limiting the ability and power of God for children who are not baptized.

 

>Even when the Jews did not obey God, they were still considered God's people.

Why don't people on BB give the same latitude to Catholics? Food for the goose . . . .

 

>>Originally Posted by Wittenberger
>>If infant baptism is not regenerational, then it has to be at least covenantal, like the Reformed believe. I just can't believe God left infants out in the cold in the New Covenant when he seemed to care for them so much in the Old Covenant.

>Jesus says to become like little children. That statement alone should give you assurance that children are in God’s graces. It sounds as if you are limiting the ability and power of God for children who are not baptized.

You saying that children are born regenerate then grow out of their regeneration?