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Featured Is Baptism the New Circumcision?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Wittenberger, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. Wittenberger

    Wittenberger New Member

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    I appreciate your responses, Brother.

    I am keeping an open mind. I seek the Truth, whereever that may be. I intend to do more studying on the subject. I was raised Baptist. I was a preacher's son. I know the doctrine, I just find the Lutheran position more convincingly sciptural and historically consistent.

    I don't think anyone is going to change their position on this issue. Here is a copy of a statement by the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, the second largest Lutheran denomination in the United States, a conservative, confessional Lutheran Church:

    How is the Gospel obscured?
    The Gospel is obscured by well-intentioned people who
    want to encourage a life of good works, and end up making
    Christians think that it is by their works that they are saved.
    This is a great danger. Through His Word and Sacraments,
    Jesus is constantly working in our lives to forgive our sins and
    strengthen our relationship with God.God always receives the
    credit for our salvation.He is the one working in us.This is not
    something we can do_Our good works are the result of God’s
    love in our hearts and lives. Our good works in this life do
    not save us,only Christ saves us. Works serve our neighbor
    and show to the world that we are grateful for God’s mercy in
    our lives.
    Another way the Gospel can be obscured is when too much
    emphasis is put on an emotional response to the Gospel.Some
    Christians believe that unless they have some sort of ecstatic,
    charismatic experience,or feel some sort of “spiritual high,”
    they are not really Christians. It is truly sad that some people
    look into their own hearts for the security that they are children
    of God,instead of putting their hope and trust in the objective
    work of Christ for them,and in the means God uses to come to
    them—His Word and Sacraments.
    If we find ourselves beginning to ask, “Am I doing
    enough?”or thinking,“It doesn’t matter what I do,for God will
    forgive me anyway,”then we are at risk of losing Christ and His
    forgiveness.We look always to Jesus and put our hope and trust
    in Him.He is our Savior.And,that’s good news!
    All blessing,honor, thanks and praise to Father,Son and
    Spirit, the God who saved us by His grace. All glory to His
    merit! O triune God in heaven above,you have revealed your
    saving love.Your blessed name we hallow.
    — Dr.A.L.Barry
    President
    The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
     
  2. Wittenberger

    Wittenberger New Member

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    How do Lutherans believe that we can be assured of our salvation?

    On what should we base our assurance of salvation?
    Q: On what should we base our assurance of salvation? I know the Word and the promises of the
    Gospel are our rock, but how do we distinguish between real faith and mere intellectual assent? I ask
    this because many evangelicals make me nervous when they say that if one has doubts about one's
    salvation, one is probably not saved, because the Holy Spirit is supposed to provide inner assurance. (I
    guess this ties in to the whole Pietist problem.) But in the face of emotional ups and downs, moral
    failings, intellectual doubts, and confusion over doctrine, how can one know if one truly has faith in
    Christ?
    A: Lutherans believe that faith is created and strengthened not by looking inside of one's self (to one's
    own faith and/or doubts) but by looking outside of one's self (to God's Word and promises in Christ).
    Therefore, assurance of salvation is to be sought by looking to God's Word and promises in Christ (which
    create and strengthen the faith through which one is saved), not by looking inward at the strength or
    weakness of one's own faith (which creates either pride and false assurance or doubt and lack of
    assurance). Anxiety regarding doubts, strength of faith and certainty of salvation are signs of faith
    (however weak it may be), not signs of unbelief, since the unbeliever has no concern or anxiety about
    doubts, faith or salvation. If you would like to study this issue further, I would recommend Martin
    Chemnitz's book on Justification available from Concordia Publishing House (800-325-3040, stock no. 15-
    2186).
    Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.
    Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
    ©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
    1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295
    888
     
  3. Wittenberger

    Wittenberger New Member

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    Here is the official position of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod on the Doctrine of Baptism:

    Baptism
    Baptism and its purpose
    Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and what is its purpose? Does the child
    become a Christian when baptized?
    A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in
    Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10:17). Jesus Himself
    commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt 28:19-
    20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s
    Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a
    person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal 3:26-27; Rom 6:1-4; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor.
    12:13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and
    “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when
    an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says
    that infants can believe (Matt 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7;
    Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet
    it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim 3:15). The faith of the infant,
    like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt 28:18-20), or it will die.
    Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a
    person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism
    should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith
    in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans
    baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
    The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true
    believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is
    not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are
    clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the
    Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly
    commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or
    “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
    Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.
    Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
    ©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
    1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295
    888-843-5267 • [email protected]www.lcms.org/faqs
    Return to Table of Contents
     
  4. Wittenberger

    Wittenberger New Member

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    Here is another official statement on the Doctrine of Baptism by the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. You can read more of these statement at the Church's official website: www.lcms.org

    Click on "What we believe" and then click on "Frequently asked questions".


    Baptism saves? (2 pages)
    Q: I believe I understand the LCMS position on Baptism although it seems to lead down a troublesome
    path. As I understand you can be regenerated through Baptism and also regenerated by believing in
    Jesus, without Baptism, and then later baptized. The Lutheran position forces one to come to this
    conclusion of two ways to be saved, although both are by faith alone, just two different means. In Acts
    10:44ff they believed and as a result were saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore baptized. Eph
    1:3 also speaks of salvation by the work of the Holy Spirit. If Baptism also saves, it must not save
    adults since an adult would not say I do not believe but I want to be baptized to get the faith to
    believe. If indeed the prooftexts of baptismal regeneration do actually refer to salvation, it must only
    be for babies since adults would of necessity believe before being baptized. And if they do only speak
    of babies who do not have the capacity to believe, why don't these verses say so. My question then is,
    what do you see wrong with my reasoning? You do not have to give me the prooftexts since I have
    known them and have studied them and have ready many articles and the catechism both from
    Lutherans and others.
    A: We are pleased to hear that you have thoroughly studied the Scriptures on the topic of Baptism and
    other literature dealing with this subject. Perhaps you are very familiar with the Large Catechism's
    treatment of Baptism, but we mention it here because Luther's treatise on infant baptism in this section
    is extremely useful. Luther goes to the heart of the foundational theological questions at issue over
    against errant understandings of Baptism present among those involved in the Anabaptist movement of
    his time.
    Perhaps we can make a couple of points that seem pertinent to the issue(s) you have raised. First, as you
    have implied in your letter, it seems important to note that while Baptism is God's gracious means of
    conveying to human beings His saving grace revealed to us in Jesus Christ our Savior, it is not the only
    means. On the basis of the Scriptures we teach that the spoken Word of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16-17;
    10:17) and the Lord's Supper (Matt. 26; Mark 14; Luke 22; 1 Cor. 11) are also means of grace. It is no less
    a miracle of God's grace at work that an adult should believe by hearing the words of the Gospel, than
    that an infant should receive through Baptism the Spirit who creates the very faith by which one
    receives incorporation into Christ (Romans 6:4 "We were buried therefore with him by [Greek: the
    instrumental dia] baptism..."). Adults who hear the spoken Word and believe eagerly seek to be
    baptized, not because it is a human rite symbolic of one's commitment or something to that effect, but
    because of what God promises in and through Baptism. It must be remembered that the only
    theological distinction between the spoken Word of the Gospel and Baptism is that the sacrament
    includes a visible element; hence, our Lutheran fathers commonly spoke of Baptism as "visible Gospel."
    The Scriptures distinguish Baptism and the spoken Word, but do not separate them; they are both
    means of grace. As you also no doubt are fully aware, we teach that it is not the lack of Baptism that
    necessarily condemns, but it is the despising of this precious gift that endangers faith, for God Himself
    has instituted it and attached His promises to it.
    The Scriptures teach, of course, that there is only one Baptism (Eph. 4:5). There is no indication that God
    has limited this blessed means of grace to individuals on the basis of age or levels of maturity. Baptism is
    God's act, a divine testimony to what "grace alone" really means, whereby He imparts the blessings of
    forgiveness, life, and salvation to individuals, children and adults alike. And as our Lutheran fathers have
    always taught, Baptism confirms the grace of God upon adults who have already come to faith, and
    strengthens them in their faith, even as the Lord's Supper does.
    Page 4 of 14
    Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion.
    Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
    ©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
    1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295
    888-843-5267 • [email protected]www.lcms.org/faqs


    Wittenberger's comments: Sometimes I think Baptists and evangelicals infer that "grace" and "salvation" are synonymous, one and the same. This is not correct. A sinner receives justifying grace when as an adult he hears the Gospel preached and believes or when an infant of Christian parents is baptized.

    Once we are Christians, we receive sanctifying grace when we hear the Word preached and when we partake of Holy Communion. Thus, Lutherans believe that we receive sanctifying grace in the Lord's Supper, not justifying grace. We are already justified by faith.

    Grace means: God's unmerited favor and blessings.

    God doesn't stop giving Christians his unmerited favor and blessings once you are a Christian. God continues to give sanctifying grace our entire lives.

    Yes, in salvation, we receive God's grace, but God's grace is not limited to salvation.
     
    #84 Wittenberger, Aug 8, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2012
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Pope John XXIII baptized a bell. It had about the same efficacy as any other baptism I know. The bell got wet, just as every other recipient of baptism.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    is our friend saying that His church views water baptism as entry into the faith, regenerated by God in it?
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Hmmm, not sure. Can a bell be regenerated? Can it be the recipient of supernatural grace?
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    An FYI. This is another myth. What actually happened as one Catholic puts it
     
  9. Wittenberger

    Wittenberger New Member

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    Yes, but it is the power of the spoken Word of God at baptism that saves, not the act itself.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What difference does it really make. The bell is as inanimate as the water.
    How on earth do a few drops of the elements of hydrogen and oxygen become holy? Did God infuse supernatural grace into the water now? More superstition!
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    It makes all the difference in the world. Baptism is a sacrament that confers grace. Blessing is an object does not confer grace. All blessing it does is set it asside for a special use like the temple plates and candle stands. They are holy objects because they were set apart for a special use. This is the case with the bell. BTW as you know Holy means to set apart.
    There is no disagreement there. You are right.

    Because its set apart for a special purpose like the temple bread.

    Nope. He didn't because the object wasn't baptized and thus this view is a non sequitur because the bells weren't actually baptized. They were blessed setting them asside for a special purpose.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no such thing as a sacrament in the Bible. Baptism does not confer grace. That is a man-made doctrine; cannot be found in the Bible. The only thing baptism has ever done for anyone is to make them wet.
    The word blessed in the Bible is "makarios".
    Look in the Beatitudes.
    Blessed are the poor in spirit.
    Blessed are the meek.
    Blessed are those that hunger after righteousness. etc.

    The word "blessed" simply means "happy."
    A bell cannot be happy, nor can water. The word "blessed" does not mean "holy." It is not related to it. It does not mean "set apart."
    You are getting the word mixed up with "sanctified." The were vessels in the Temple that were sanctified and set apart for usage in the Temple.

    A different word is used when Jacob blessed his children, when Jesus blessed the little children. He simply prayed for them. There was no grace conferred.
    Water doesn't do that.
    Water doesn't bless. Big mistake.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    The sacraments can be found in the bible in the same sense as the doctrine of the trinity can be found in the bible. Just because a word isn't in the bible doesn't mean the bible doesn't have a doctrine of it.

    this only shows you're not paying attention. The english word blessed has more conotations than just happy. In English it has as one of its meanings
    as well as
    . So when I say blessed I'm speaking to the first definition rather than the latter definition. So the item is being set apart or to make holy. therefore your argument is a non-sequitur once again. It just doesn't follow.

    .Yes and that too is translated blessed so we see that bless is the one english word that can mean happy and to set apart or make holy something. If I were to speak Hebrew I would use that word that they used to sanctify an object which would be translated back into english as bless. So again you fail in the argument.

    Water doesn't do what?
    Prayers are the mater of blessings water is an instrument of the rite.

    People bless and if they want to signify what they are blessing with water then they can.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I pay attention well. Nothing of what you say comes from the Bible. It comes from your man-made traditions, your English definitions, not Biblical definitions. You can define a church as a building but the Bible doesn't do that. That is the logic you are using. You just willy nilly use whatever definition you want and leave the Bible out of your vocabulary. Your entire argument is moot, and does not prove anything to anyone who has any knowledge of the Word of God.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So what if the person was not water baptised?
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Everything I say comes from the bible! :smilewinkgrin:
    :laugh: The bible isn't a dictionary. I thought you went to seminary! And what about your man made traditions!!! Mine are wrong but yours are ok? Sorry DHK your Traditions are no more scriptural than mine. Where does it say to make "alter calls"?

    I've never done so. That is an unjust statement. A church is a group of people called out of the world by the Lord. The buildings are just where we meet. So you are entirely wrong and your argument once agains doesn't follow. When I say a visible Church I'm not talking about a building but a group of people you can point to and say that is the church who are unified in one belief. The invisible church you think of is a group of people who generally have a limited orthodox view of their faith but can't be pointed out as a single body because they differ on minor issues of doctrine and thus are in many denominations. So in your mind some of each protestant denomination are the Church but you can't point it out. In your mind Jesus said I will build my churches. However, that is not what he said.
    My arguments are never moot! and I abide by the Word of God!
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    To me, the whole problem with discussing this with RC, is that they just cannot see how God can say a sinner is made right, unless they actually are right enough to be saved by God! that seems to be their view on sacraments, in that a sinner has to get good enough in order to merit getting saved by God!
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Again that is a wrong view of the sacraments. You can't get good enough to get saved but you can recieve grace as you participate in the life of Christ through the sacraments.

    There is nothing you can do to get saved except one thing and one thing only To repent of your sins, believe in Jesus and follow him. Ie have faith! Baptism and all the other sacraments are Jesus extending his grace to you strengthening you by the Holy Spirit as you live your life in him. Simple as that. kind of like reading the bible. That action doesn't save you but it gives you the grace of Gods word which when you read it the Holy Spirit comes and gives you insight and speaks with you leading you furhter into your salvation. And its your participation in the salvation given you because you are doing those things that are given you to recieve more of God. Thats kind of how the sacraments work.
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I believe that a person who has faith will want to be baptized and recieve baptismal grace that indellable mark of their salvation ie the Holy Spirit. To follow the Lord and recieve him as they obey him. However, if they cannot be baptized despite their desire then God will still save them.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    how, by what basis, as the RCC holds that one gets regenerated/saved thru the act of the baptism?
     
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