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Featured Is believing/faith a work ?3

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Jan 20, 2022.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Believing is one of works God has ordained each new creation of His to walk in. Eph 2:10

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before

    Thats why believing Faith can be contrasted with works for Salvation, when its a work post Salvation !
     
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The only time believing isnt a work is when its understood that the Faith in which a believer believes did not originate from within him or her self, but it was granted to them by Sovereign Grace, otherwise believing faith defaults to a work of man naturally from within himself.23
     
  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Many tell us that in order to get saved you must accept Christ, now understand, if we call ourselves accepting Christ to get saved, that would be a work, since its an action we do. The word for work ergon:

    1. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    So accepting Christ is an act on our part. But the scripture teaches Salvation without works See Eph 2:8-9; 2 Tim 1:9

    Yes, if we must perform any act to get, or keep salvation, its no longer salvation by grace, but of works.23
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    When the Jailer in Acts 16:30 asked what must I do to be saved,

    And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?24

    He wasnt asking about what qualifying action he do to get himself saved, for he never used the word get as in get saved, but he used the word be, as be saved. The words be saved here are in the passive voice wherein the subject is the recipient of the action, for he was speaking from a frame of helplessness, hopelessness. Pauls response was not that he should do, act, or perform but to believe, that's promoting Faith and not works. Paul knew that believing was the Gift of God, that is, to believe in Christ savingly wasn't a natural inherent quality of the natural man, believing is having been given the Gift of Faith Eph 2:8. Paul testified to the fact that believing on Christ was something God gives here Phil 1:29

    29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    That word given is basically the same word for grace charizomai derived from and the middle voice of charis translated 130 times in the NT as Grace.

    So people believe because of Grace Acts 18:27.

    So now even though technically believing is a doing, which technically is a work, nobody has the ability to believe until God by Grace, by Grace doing, its Gods Grace and Spirit working in the Spirit sanctified sinner causing the sinner to believe. No man by nature can truly believe in Christ as Saviour without first being saved by Grace and given the gift of Faith, so it is written 1 Pet 1:21

    21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Phil 2:13

    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    The do the Jailer needed to do to be saved, God needed to first worketh in him to do.

    So thats how Salvation by works and Faith can be scripturally contrasted, when credit is given to Grace for a person doing the believing, and believing wasn't a natural freewill ability they had of themselves prior to regeneration.

    But if we insist that believing was a condition we met prior to being saved by grace, and we did it as natural men, and as a result, God saved us, that's making believing, faith a work we do for salvation.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The born again believer was granted God given Faith by Grace, in order to believe in Jesus Christ for his or her Salvation, so believing in this regard is not a work of man but a Gift from God to him by Grace.
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Now understand, . If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the work of man, or the productions of natural man’s own efforts, then his salvation is the fruit of his own labour , his work,

    However If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the gifts of God of His grace, then it is absurd , to consider them as conditions on the part of man and then his salvation is of grace.
     
  8. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 1 says that God was well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.

    This salvation comes after belief, according to this passage.

    I believe God Holy Spirit must intervene in a person’s life, regenerating the person’s nature, convicting of sin and the truth of Jesus’s life, death, resurrection, and that person will respond with faith entering into a right relationship with God at that point.

    peace to you
     
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You are conditioning salvation on a persons act of believing, thats salvation by works.
     
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Acts 16:30-32

    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

    What the answer the jailer received simply shows is, the saved believe. He was not told to ‘Believe, and then you will be saved or get saved’. He was not told that his act of believing is what his salvation is reliant upon. He was merely told that the saved believe, and the rest of Scripture shows that this believing is a gift from God, and not something which can be self-induced by man. Salvation does not wait upon your believing, but on the grace of God. All a man can be told is believe and you will be saved. However, far from implying that salvation is conditioned on a man’s believing, all these words are saying is that only the man who believes will be saved. The man who has eternal life is the man who believes. The gift of eternal life is present only in the man who believes. The gift comes first, then the believing. Salvation is not by works, it is not by your belief, it is by the grace of God through the gift of faith. Grace gives faith to the man who has been chosen by God to believe. Believing is not a ‘Do this and you will then be/get saved’ proposition, for believing is a gift from God to the one He has chosen to save. Faith is given before belief, so that one will believe. One cannot savingly believe before grace gives the gift of faith. One cannot believe without the gift of faith being given first, just as one cannot be saved without grace. https://www.godsonlygospel.com/by-grace-alone-22
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. I am conditioning salvation on the specific passage of 1 Corinthians 1, which states God was well pleased, through the foolishness of the message preached, to save those those who believe.

    “ ….Save those who believe….”

    Address that passage. Otherwise, you are just giving your opinion. It’s your opinion that is contrary to scripture.

    peace to you
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Here's what I see in 1 Corinthians 1:1-2,4-9,26-31.

    Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes, To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you— so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

    For
    consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”


    You simply referenced 1 Corinthians 1, but it seems in reading that God does the calling and the choosing of everyone who believed. Please explain your position from this chapter.
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Why did you leave out 1 Corinthians 1:21? If you read the whole chapter, then you intentionally left out the passage I was referring to.

    Why not quote and specially address “God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those that believe”.

    The phrase “Save those that believe” indicates the belief/faith comes prior to salvation.

    You accused me of believing a works based salvation. I’m giving you this passage to support what I said and you promptly ignored it.

    Just show me from 1 Corinthians 1:21 that I believe a works based salvation.

    peace to you
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know you were only referring to one verse and not the chapter. Vs 21 didn't stand out.
    Here's the section I missed.
    1 Corinthians 1:20-25

    Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    I will argue that the whole chapter shows you that your one verse is not telling you the order of salvation, but it is saying that the saved also believe.
    Why do they believe? The verses I quoted in the chapter tell you.
    God called them and God chose them.
     
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    No its not nonsense. It appears you conditioning salvation on a persons act of believing, thats works all day long..
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Again, nonsense. I have clearly stated that salvation is a work of God start to finish. Within God’s “work”, a person will respond with faith. They do not have a right relationship with God without faith.

    You are near the hyper view that people are “saved” whether they have faith or not.

    peace to you
     
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying people are “saved” without faith in Christ?

    peace to you
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Here is what the Bible says. I will highlight the section in red that one must wrestle with.

    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    ~ Ephesians 2:4-9

    The verses 4 and 5 clarify the later verse that everyone likes to quote..."For by grace you have been saved through faith."
    Notice the first declaration is what God did (the cause), even when we were dead. The second declaration expands on what God did (the cause is saved by God's grace) and moves to the effect of God's gracious saving (faith responds to the gracious work by believing).
    So, even when we were dead, God made us alive by His grace alone. By God's grace alone we are given faith to believe what God graciously did.
    Grace causes faith as the effect of being saved.

    God says it. It's not me making it up. The text tells us.

    This is what I hold to because God tells us this in His Word.

    Peace
     
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You are conditioning salvation on man responding, thats a work !
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Paul consistently places God as the cause and faith as the effect. I will quote all of Paul's one sentence so it captures his thought and then highlight the specific part of the sentence.

    2 Timothy 1:8-12
    Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
     
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