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Featured Is Calvisnism Gnostic

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I have been given no credible sources. Only opinion pieces.

    Here is your argument:

    Augustine was once a Gnostic. Augustine influenced Calvinism. Therefore Calvinism was influenced by Gnosticism. It is a formal fallacy and a poor debate tactic. Most importantly it is not honest.
     
  2. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    You have been given sources and facts. I am a Christian historian, and I know what I'm talking about. Go to any Christian scholar, though, and deny the facts I have shown about Augustine, and he/she will laugh in your face.

    Keep repeating those last two lines until you're blue in the face. It can't change historical fact.
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    A Christian historian would have academic sources. You have none. What you do have is a large emotional disdain which drives these false accusations. And claiming it is a historical fact does not make it so. Especially when it is based on a formal fallacy.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Note the similarity to Calvinism, certain persons are elect and chosen out, predestined to grace and salvation, while the rest were destined for possession by the Devil and eternal fire.

    When confronting Gnostics Augustine argued free will, but when confronting Pelagius Augustine denied free will, the foundation of Total Inability and Calvinism.

    Here is a scholar who said Augustine's theology was influenced by his years as a Manichaen.

    Of course, you will simply deny that this is evidence that Augustine and Calvin were influenced by Gnostic teachings.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I absolutely agree, Augustine is the primary source of most of the great errors in Christianity. Calvin simply plagiarized Augustine.
     
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I think so.


    Calvin quoted Augustine over 400 times in his institutes of Christian Religion.

    As John Wesley said < Calvinism is a Blasphemy to God>

    What would be the human efforts of preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to believe in the Gospel and in Jesus Christ and thereby to send to the Lake of Fire?

    Preaching the Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to believe, must be a rebellion to God.
     
  7. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Do the research yourself. Are you afraid of the results? I have plenty of sources, but I won't do the work for you or even share them with you because you don't deserve it. And your spouting off about fallacies and such is just your hollow opinion, nothing more. And it is both hollow and an opinion because history shoots it down. I know you wish those weren't the facts and that you could change them, but no amount of whining, protesting, wishful thinking, and accusing can do that.

    It is an established fact that Augustine was influenced by his pagan, Manichaen past and by Neoplatonic philosophy, and that influence was passed along to Roman Catholicism and to Calvin. Further, all Magisterial Protestantism was influenced by it; the only ones mostly escaping it were the Wesleyans, Anabaptists and their spiritual kin like the Quakers, and General Baptists. Of course Eastern Orthodoxy is decidedly non-Augustinian.

    I have been challenged before to post scholarly evidence by people who claimed I didn't have any, so I did it and shut them up. But I don't like your tone, so I'll let you keep talking and digging that hole deeper and deeper.
     
    #47 Thomas Helwys, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
  8. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Correct, and Augustinian theology has been highly influential in the RCC.
     
  9. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    The belief in the depravity of man was not introduced until the 3rd or 4th century. Gnostics had believed that from their beginning.

    Many more links could be cited, but those below are enough for now:

    Calvinism False Doctrines, Depravity, Election, Atonement ...
    www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm - Přeložit tuto stránku
    Calvin is continually praising Augustine's work with numerous references and quotations. Augustine was greatly influenced by the Gnostics, an early Christian ...
    Calvinism: Spiritual Fusion - Article 8 of 11
    www.carylmatrisciana.com/.../index.php?... - Přeložit tuto stránku
    Gnosticism elevated knowledge or 'gnosis' as the means to achieve salvation. .... Similar to John Calvin's "conversion", Augustine's conversion was not to the ...
    Augustine+gnosticism, Pelagius | Bjorkbloggen
    bjorkbloggen.wordpress.com/.../augustinegnostic... - Přeložit tuto stránku
    25. 1. 2013 – This entry was posted on 2012/04/05, in *ENGLISH, Augustine+gnosticism, Pelagius and tagged augustine, Calvin, devil, dualism, gnostic, ...
    Augustine, the former gnostic, and his many heretical views ...
    bjorkbloggen.wordpress.com/.../augustine-the-fo... - Přeložit tuto stránku
    3. 4. 2012 – This entry was posted on 2012/04/03, in *ENGLISH, Augustine+gnosticism, Pelagius and tagged augustine, Calvin, catholic, church, church ...
    [PDF]
    The Gnosticism of Calvinism - Library of Theology
    www.libraryoftheology.com/.../calvinismarminia... - Přeložit tuto stránku
    Formát souboru: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Rychlé zobrazení
    The Reformation, of the Luther/Calvin kind, gave the church a heavy dose of Roman Catholicism, through Anselm's penal atonement and through. Augustine's ...

    Gnostic Christianity
    www.allaboutreligion.org/gnostic-christianity-faq... - Přeložit tuto stránku
    He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine's ...
    Calvinism is a Gnostic sect | Pious Fabrications
    www.piousfabrications.com/.../calvinism-is-gnost... - Přeložit tuto stránku
    3. 1. 2010 – An example of such a flawed, Gnostic-tinged theology is Augustine's ... Protestant, achieving their fullest form in the theology of John Calvin.

     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for being objective:thumbsup:

    Correct and well said!

     
    #50 Iconoclast, Feb 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2013
  11. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    :laugh: :laugh:

    He wouldn't recognize objectivity or acknowledge historical facts if they bit him in the posterior.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello ELIYAHU,

    This statement shows you do not understand the teaching you are attempting to discuss.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He started out saying that he has much disagreement with Calvinism.In other words he has "no horse" in this race.In fact he might enjoy if someone could convince him with facts.
    that is objective as I see it.He see's through this nonsense and I respect him for that particularly in that he is not looking to defend the teaching, just seeking truth.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  14. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Check the following and see how these directly from Gnosticism fit into Calvin's elect and non-elect:

    Calvinism: Spiritual Fusion - Article 8 of 11
    www.carylmatrisciana.com / ... / index.php? ... - Translate this page
    The Manicheans Their followers Divided into two groups , the " elect "and the hearers . The " elect " ... During HIS years in the cult, Augustine remained a hearer .
    Define Manichaeism | Dictionary and Thesaurus
    manichaeism.askdefine.com / - Translate this page
    It was Purchased by the University of Cologne in 1969, and two of its scientists ... According to the Confessions of Wed Augustine , after eight or nine years of ... the idea of hell, the separation of groups into elect , hearers , and sinners , and the ...
    Patrick Comerford: Lust, sex, original sin and war: Augustine and ...
    revpatrickcomerford.blogspot.com / ... / sex-lust-ori ... - Translate this page
    20th 11th 2011 - Augustine was Bishop of Hippo Regius, present-day Annaba in ... the separation of groups into elect , hearers , and sinners , and his .... Augustine saw the human being as a perfect unity of two Substances: soul and Points.
    Augustine - Fromdeathtolife.org
    fromdeathtolife.org/cphil/good2.html - Translate this page
    He did not Consider the differences as a clash of two fundamentally different views of reality, and he ... were obligated only for the elect , not for the " hearers ", it Which group Augustine belonged. .... This is true of of the righteous and the sinner .
    [PDF]
    Confessions of a Justified Sinner - Glasgow Theses Service ...
    theses.gla.ac.uk/1799/01/2005munrophd.pdfFile Format: PDF / Adobe Acrobat 8th First 2013 - It Takes into account the Rhetorical sIdll and art of Augustine , and That's central Augustine's ... Chapter two : The Cmfesskm in Historical Context. 19 ..... We must try to Affect the hearers attitude by appealing to future Advantages ..... The Donatists were a protest group That Arosa in North Africa at the Beginning ...

    Manichean - Everything2.com
    everything2.com/title/Manichean - United States - Translate this page
    14th 6th 2001 - ... of Mani, were split into two groups : the " hearers "and the" elect . ... Wed Augustine served as a hearer of the Manicheans for nine years, but got ...
    Manichaeism, Manichaeism
    mb-soft.com/believe/txn/manichae.htm - Translate this page
    This triple seal Applies only to the elect or pure; hearers follow and less ... Especially Opposition was strong in Africa under Augustine , Who for nine years and had been Hearer . ... failed, he traveled to India, where he founded HIS first in religious group . ... As the theory of two eternal principles, good and evil, is predominant in this ...
     
  15. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    His posts prove that he is not seeking truth. That's easy to see.
     
  16. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Thanks for your posts.

    I can't believe I'm still here trying to convince someone of the facts about Augustine, facts which I knew decades ago. I find it amazing that anyone would dispute this, as it's common knowledge among theologians and church historians, and also easily verifiable by anyone. It just shows that when anyone has presuppositions that they don't want changed, no amount of facts and evidence will move them. So be it. But I appreciate your effort.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Tom, your not successful because your presentation stinks. Had you showed scholarly evidence up front, you would have established credibility....but you didn't do that. You did however act like a juvenile & added commentary that was insulting.... so what do you expect! Sorry but you are a very poor persuader. :tear:
     
    #57 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2013
  18. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    And from reading your posts, I thought you were one who liked and desired straight talk. Is that only when it agrees with you? That's a serious question.

    I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I'm interested in objective facts and presenting those. Whether someone kicks against them, screams and cries or attacks because they can't accept them is not my problem. I don't post to attack or be attacked, but some can't help it, I guess. Sometimes I let it go, and sometimes I don't.

    One reason I have come to like you is because you do talk straight and sometimes with a sense of humor. I won't change my opinion whatever you say about me.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that the basic premise here being presented is very flawed in regards to thsoe trying to link calvin and others to Gnostic sources...

    John Calvin took his doctrines and teaching prime sourced the holy Bible...

    Disagree with how he interpreted them, but do NOT say that he invention something from Gnostic or nothing!
     
  20. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    John Calvin was strongly influence by Augustine, there's no doubt about that.
     
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