Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Sep 9, 2011.
As per Ephesians 2:8/9?
It is not speaking of faith being the gift. Salvation is the gift. Very easy if one doesn't try to read between the lines or interpret with an agenda already in mind.
Sounds like saving faith has been granted to us who believe.
because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also, (Philippians 1:29) Darby
There are two privileges that are given to every believer:
1. "the believing on him," that is, salvation.
2. "suffering for him also."
I do not believe that this verse teaches that faith is given as a gift.
Yeah, we sorta skip over the suffering part, don't we?
I see the granting of faith as more than just the privilege of believing on Him. And more than just granting all the ability to exercise faith. I see it as the actual gift of faith, given to his elect.
Obviously, we'll come at this from different directions. But we do agree on this: Eternal life is the gift of God, given without regard to merit on our part (since we have none).
Yes, faith is a gift.
But, we must be careful with Ephesians 2:8-9. Knowing the Greek and the issues, it would be easy to say, "See...faith is a gift." While I would agree that faith is a gift, this particular passage does not single-out faith as the gift. According to most scholars, salvation is the gift. We must be careful not to ignore the "grace" part. Grace and faith are a gift; they are two sides of the same coin and are, therefore, inseparable. When God grants salvation, both grace and faith are given.
In the Book of Genesis, in particular, it is relatively easy to see God taking the necessary steps to discipline those whom He has chosen. For example, Jacob is a dirty, rotten scoundrel. Yet, he is the one whom God has chosen. When Jacob is with his parents, when he steals Esau's birthright, when he flees to Rebekah's family, etc., he is most definitely not a believer. Yet, God wrestles with him, He molds him, He shapes him. God ensures that--through His own divine intervention--Jacob will be transformed. Jacob will become a believer. Jacob comes along slowly. The primary gift given to Jacob is grace. Because of God's grace, faith is given through tedious development. Grace is not given because of faith.
As for inherent faith vs. saving faith...I say there must be a difference. We all have faith, for example, that if you drive your car over a bridge or through a tunnel that the bridge or tunnel won't fall apart and kill you. We place our faith in engineers whom we have never met. We have faith that their math was right and we have faith that those who constructed the bridge or tunnel were faithful to the engineer's designs.
This is not the same type of faith that is required for salvation.
Of first importance, we have to realize inherent faith (the kind that takes us over the bridge) does not require us to change to be conformed to anyone's image or likeness. Saving faith does, in fact, require our conformity to Christ.
So, while they might bear the same name, "faith" of an inherent nature and "faith" of a saving nature are not as closely related as some would have us think.
The kind of faith--saving faith--that causes us to leave all and follow Christ is not typical nor inherent.
That's my 1AM musing for the day.
What we believe and the work in our lives to get us to believe comes from God.
I think we all agree with that.
But God does not take away our responsible to not to be wise in our own eyes, trust in Him and not lean on our own understanding.
That we stop listen and learn.
One side see our role and the other side sees God role in our salvation.
To me for God to actually place two roads before us, to place life and death before us through Jesus and for God to have a genuine desire for us to choose Jesus and live doesn't get rid of God sovereignty because it is Him who has chosen who will be saved those who trust in His Son to a point to listen and learn.
We don't have to, we can just walk away from Jesus like the young rich ruler and walk away from life eternal.
I have no problem with what God convinced me of in my youth, for i still believe it today.
Yes, faith is a gift of God. But those verses are talking about salvation being the gift, and not faith. Faith is the "vessel" by which Grace/salvation flows, so without faith, there can be no Grace.
Amen, Brother, amen. :thumbs:
Well, I agree that faith is a gift of God, but do not agree that there are varying degrees of faith, or more than one faith.
Eph. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
You have faith(singular and not plural) and unbelief. There isn't faiths and unbelief(s).
Rom. 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
So as you can plainly see, you have faith(singular) and sin/unbelief, not faiths.
Inherent faith yes; saving faith no. We all have inherent faith, as you described and gave a good illustration. But I don't find any scripture in the Bible where God gives "saving faith" that is, faith to the unregenerate. In your example you put your faith in the engineers of the bridge. The object of your faith become the engineers. In "saving faith" it is the same kind of faith. Faith is faith. But the object of the faith changes. Now the object of my faith is Jesus Christ and his atoning work for me. Once my faith, my confidence is directed on him, I will be saved.
A person who has just put their faith in Christ is not necessarily thinking of being conformed to the image of Christ. That faith is the faith that is given as a gift to the believer after salvation. It is mentioned in the fruit of the Spirit. It used to be one of the spiritual gifts. We add to our faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We grow in our faith in direct proportion as we grow in our relationship to Jesus Christ.
think that this ALL depends on just how one sees us being affected by the fall of Adam, and all of us now in him and spiritually dead as the direct result!
Since ALL spiritually died by being in him, than God would have to effect the faith in us to allow us to believe and receive Christ and become saved!
With regard to this passage I agree with John Calvin when he wrote, "Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God."
I don't think anyone would deny that man's ability to believe is a gift of God, the point of contention is regarding the irresistibility of the means by which men are brought to faith. I believe the gospel is powerful enough to accomplish the purpose for which it was sent...which is to make an appeal to all enemies of God to be reconciled. We have no reason to believe that appeal is not sufficient to lead one to faith in Christ. Those who reject that appeal stand condemned for their unbelief, not because God failed to provide them what they needed to believe...otherwise they would have a perfect excuse.
Think that the single biggest reasons Chrsitians have in NOT believing that God indeed grants faith as a gift, part of His salvation package is that they refuse to see just how badlyn the fall messed us up, and that it requires God Himself to directly intervene in to have us become saved!
Saving faith does not come from us; God gives us the faith to be saved. However, salvation is the gift God gives, and a gift is something for which you don't have to work-- despite those who think we do.
Exactly......salvation is not like an easter egg hunt ....where you find a part here ,a part there, another thing over here,......
Archangel also highlights that there are several kinds of faith described in scripture..."even "a false faith!
DHK.....before a believer is a believer.....he is even as others....unregenerate
When God gives the gift of salvation,at regeneration....the unregenerate is made regenerate by the Spirit ,grace ,and gift of God.
it is in this sense that "unregenerate' are given faith as part of this so great salvation.
You have created a false dichotomy--one that I don't believe in. If I don't believe in your soteriological outlook all I can do is stand up and yell: "Your wrong!"
Here is the problem. Regeneration and salvation take place at the same time. They are simultaneous events describing two aspects of salvation that occur at the exact same time. One does not precede the other. It is wrong to try to make that distinction.
Thus to say "when God give the gift of salvation at regeneration...it is at this time or in this sense that "the unregenerate are given faith as part of this so great salvation." Hogwash!
You have God giving a regenerated person faith but he is still not saved. You don't have an ounce of Scripture for that only the philosophies of Calvinism. I would rather believe the Bible, thank you very much. And the Bible teaches that faith is:
1. A spiritual gift.
2. A fruit of the Spirit.
God does not give either one of those to either unregenerate or unsaved people no matter which way you slice and dice salvation.
Faith is inherent. Were born with faith. We already have it. It is not some esoteric, mystical, intangible and undefinable force that the Calvinist cannot put into words, and yet at the same time claims the Holy Spirit somehow bestows upon the unregenerate person. This is foolishness, and has no Scriptural backing.
We all have faith, even from early childhood onward.
When confronted with the prospect of salvation the question of the object of salvation comes into our focus. Will I put Christ as the object of my faith, or will I allow "self" to be the object of my salvation, or perhaps some other "idol." What is the object of my faith? Something is. The decision at salvation is that one must say no to self and put Christ as the object of their faith. If studied carefully you will find that that is repentance. It is a turning from sinful self and a turning to Christ in faith. (making Christ the object of faith.) You always did have faith. The object of your faith was misplaced.
It is you that are more than completely wrong here! You have missed it! You do not get it! Your false ideas about "your decision" or "your faith' is man centered false philosphy.....
Your failure to distiguish between different types of faith is a fatal flaw here.
The bible says;
yet you say;We all have faith, even from early childhood onward:laugh:
guess not my friend.....you claim you have scriptural backing and yet,you do not!:thumbs:
One of us does not understand this whole teaching....I think I know who it is very clearly:thumbs:
You can deny biblical conversion if you want to...but I will stick to the scriptural teaching
Hey...DHK....I see your hogwash,and raise you one of Van's FIDDLESTICKS:laugh:
You say in your idea...I this, and I that.....deny it if you will but you are describing what YOU DO...as to what saves you....claim whatever you want....
God says he does it in ezk34 the whole chapter.....
It cannot be God saying I will......and you dhk saying...no..I will
you can keep your ideas...but i would not recommend denying the salvation of God.
Your explanation differs very little from a romanist..i pray the rosary, I eat the eucharist, i do good works, i talk to the blessed mother,
Great Biblical, and doctrinally sound rebuttal, and with 2 Thess. 2:3. :thumbsup:
It's music to my soul.
You are correct, DHK is again completely wrong.