1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is God Needy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,039
    Likes Received:
    613
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible often distinguishes the God and the Lord Jesus by using them not interchangeably but in concert.

    Paul uses the two names in terms of access. That is through Christ access is gained to God. In Romans 3, we read that righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ.

    For the purpose of THIS thread, the use of God is restricted to the Father. We will assume as did Paul the God is the Sovereign in which even the Son submits.

    This is the view of Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:
    24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

    The question of this thread is our own presentation of God the Father.

    Is God as needy?

    Or

    Is God as self contained supreme ruler having no needs?
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,039
    Likes Received:
    613
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My own view is that God is not in any way needy. There is no capacity to be desirous, in want, deprived, ...

    As a result, when one reads that God desires, wants, needs ... then it must be taken from the view that such is not expressed as a human attribute which typically derives from lust.

    Rather, in His completeness, He can abundantly satisfy the needs of others, for He has no need.

    He can first love, because He is Love. He lays out the best offer of salvation not from need or desire, but because the purity and abundance of His love compels.

    He prepares a place for all (though some may not like it) not because of some need of retribution or desire to punish, but because His love obliges He offer what is best for individuals, creation, and even the enemy of the believer. The place is everlasting, for the best offer is every lasting.

    He gave commandment to Moses of the best offer to express both His character, holiness, and expectation. God did not need to give commandment. Rather, His love compelled the best offer to be given that humankind may know and sin be named.

    He does not need, is not desirous, is not wanting, ... because such are not within the character of God, but is very much a part of the unregenerate.

    A not needy/desirous God is a very important perspective to maintain when bringing the interpretation to certain Scriptures in which the human attribute of need, want, desire, ... is placed in the same sentence of God.

    Either God is lacking and is therefore needy, desires, wants, lusts... or God is not shackled by such and therefore has no such motivating factors.
     
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It would seem to me that being in need of something is always present. God made man. Why? God created the heavens and the Earth. Why? God sent His Son to die that we might live. Why?
    If God had no need of man, the earth and heavens and a way for man to survive. He sure did a lot of things for no good reason. It seems to me that God has a need for creatures and for the physical world for His creations to live. And after He created all these things He had a need to preserve man.
    MB
     
  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    40
    Faith:
    Baptist
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,039
    Likes Received:
    613
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good points, however, God states His thoughts and ways are incomparable to humankind.

    There is also this matter of Love. If there is a single attribute of God in contrast to all that is and are ungodly, it is that God is Love.

    All His attributes conform to that standard.

    This is why God takes no pleasure in the death of the unbeliever. His love compelled Him to prepare a place first prepared for His adversary and now fit for them both.

    His love makes the good offer to the OT folks, the best offer for the NT folks.

    Yet, God is not desirous.

    Unlike the modern versions, the original KJV has the translation of 1 Timothy 2:4 fairly accurate.

    It is a matter of will born of command, not desire born by impulse.

    In the Greek, the wording doesn’t seem to carry any emotional impulse, unlike the word desires a few verses latter. Completely different word and shows impulse.

    How does this work then?

    The example of the prayers and responses from Christ give a bit of insight.

    I think Paul’s careful separation and use of God (Father) and the Lord Jesus Christ (Son) is also in the game.

    Remember the confrontation in Eden? The use of the declarative stating the promise shows that God will provide the best resolution. Not based upon human effort, but the will of God’s expressed through the Love of God, the best and final offer is provided to all.

    Where “desire” holds the connotation of some impulse of need, there is no such presented,

    Look at this to see God’s attitude of Love expressed as a snapshot. See the will, the command, the best offer, but not desire as humans consider the impulse behind our own desires.

    4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkers by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates​

    God is offering His best, but God does so not by desire, but by command and will.

    In effect, God says, I offer this, but in order to get this, here are that which is demanded.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    45,738
    Likes Received:
    2,146
    Faith:
    Baptist

    So where did God say He is never desirous?
     
  7. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,726
    Likes Received:
    241
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If God IS love, then it seems love includes creating billions of persons for the purpose of eternal torment, having followed this adversary. Love, as well, must include creating the adversary; or creating him to be adversary. Or is there another aspect of God which was the-- motivation? Inspiration? Culmination? Whatever-ation-- acting independent of the love aspect-- that resulted in that infinite horror? Indeed, if there can be no happiness for the few without the ultimate sorrow for the multitudes-- as scripture indicates-- can love be a weaker attribute of god than others? If not, then what's the alternative?-- that there is really no eternal perdition? That it's just symbolic of nonexistence? That universalism is right after all?
     
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    3,823
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For me there is no escaping the fact of need. When we will or are willing for something it is always a need in our mind's Even if that need is nothing more than lust.

    When I was saved it was a matter of desperate need. I desired to be rid of my guilt. I desired and needed because I had been convicted of my sins and they were weighing me down.

    Christ Needed to die for our sins in order that He could save us. He needed to take all our sins upon Him Self and sacrifice Him Self so that we would not have to die and go to hell. This was needful. This was the most powerful act of love ever expressed.His love for us made it needful. for Christ to do.
    What He did for all men and women
    The very fact that God Created all that there is, fulfilled a need of Glory. A need of being loved buy His likeness. A need of purpose..
    MB
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,039
    Likes Received:
    613
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If God is needy, then God must have failed in meeting some need in the past which generated desire and hope of fulfillment. Such desire becomes lust, and lust when complete is sin. (James 1:5)

    This is contrary to 1 John 2: "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world."

    If one takes the things and thinking (the expressions of humanity) of this world and aligns them with God they have in effect taken God as a man and not as God

    Remember, on this thread, one is dealing with the nature and character of God (the Father) NOT the Son. For Paul most often separates the two by giving purpose and function specific to each. Christ experienced all humanity. The Father does not.

    The Son disrobed His glory, the Father never did.
    The Son hungered and thirsted as humans, the Father never did.
    The Son was born of flesh, the Father has no flesh.
    The Son experienced death, the Father never did.
    The Son experienced pain, the Father never did.
    The Son experienced what it is to hope and be disappointed, the Father never did.

    and on the list can go.
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25,382
    Likes Received:
    2,185
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would say that God likes to be pleased and that pleasure comes from His innermost being.

    We see this immediately from the word of God in His contemplation of His creation.

    Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Seems to be a character of deity:
    NIV Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,039
    Likes Received:
    613
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The pilgrims used “It pleased God...”

    However, being pleased does not demonstrate that there was a need to be pleased.

    God is the creator. That he considers His creation as good, as a matter of satisfaction does not indicate the need to be satisfied.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25,382
    Likes Received:
    2,185
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The last three sentences were my points well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Loading...