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Featured Is God Racist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AustinC, Sep 21, 2020.

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  1. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Am I?

    You're the one saying man evolved into skin color when I say it is used to identify race. Of course it is not the only thing, but it is one thing.

    The white man will never be a black man and vice versa. Even if he could change his skin color, he would still be of the black or white race.

    My point is, that these divisions of man are from God. Not the sun. Not evolution. God.

    Quantrill
     
  2. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Well, of course all of mankind come from Adam. But after that, certain divisions would occur among mankind to divide them.

    The first of course is Cain. God cursed Cain. (Gen. 4:11). God set a physical mark upon Cain to distinguish him from all others. You will have two distinct families of man upon the earth now. Those of Cain, and those of Seth. Call it the race of Cain and Seth or the family of Cain or Seth, it is still division by God.

    Later after the flood, There will be three divisions given in the three sons of Noah. (Gen. 9:25-27) From these would come all the divisions of mankind on earth.

    1.) Shem---blessed by God---Canaan is his slave. (9:26)

    2.) Ham---received no blessing---his descendants are cursed and are slaves. (9:25)

    3.) Japheth---enlarged by God and blessed with Shem and Canaan is his slave also. (9:27)

    These prophecies of Noah are still in place and active today. This is not the Church. This is all of mankind.

    Quantrill
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I am VERY STRONGLY disagreeing with the OP! This sort of stuff should never be said/asked about the God of the Bible. It is a MOOT argument!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That reasoning and logic made the South uphold slavery as being biblical!
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Genetics is an observation of God's creative work. The gene code was passed on from Adam and Eve, down to their descendants. It was narrowed significantly at the flood when only the genetic code of Noah and his offspring survived. From their, both dominant and recessive genes were used.
    Therefore, since Adam and Eve had all genetic data in them, they would have black skin pigmentation since it is the dominant gene that holds all pigmentation. This is simple observation and science. The recessive gene that causes white skin is something that wouldn't happen until after the flood.
     
  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Interesting observation and hypothesis.
    "Race" is not the best term. Jews and Palestinians are almost identical in color, but would represent two different groups (let's call them "blessed" and "cursed" from Genesis 9). Likewise there are dark skinned Africans who were historically the "slavers" and others that were the "slaves" ... both "black" but one "blessed" and one "cursed" by your Canaan yardstick.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
    26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.
    27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9


    A.W. Pink:
    ..."The fulfillment of Noah’s prophecy. The wonderful prediction uttered by the builder of the Ark gives in a few brief sentences the history of the new world, and shows the positions that were delegated by God to the three great divisions of the human family. In the closing verses of Genesis 9 we have a remarkable unfolding of the future destinies of the new humanity. The various parts which are to be played in human history by its leading characters are now made known. The subjection of one, the religious preeminence of the second, and the enlarging of the third head of the postdiluvian race, is here revealed.

    "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" (v. 25). Above, we intimated that as no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the ease with each of his brothers, it would seem that the curse was not intended to be limited to Canaan (there being a particular reason why Canaan should be thus singled out, namely, as an encouragement to the Israelites,) but included all of his children. By tracing the history of Ham’s other sons it becomes evident that the scope of Noah’s prophecy reached beyond Canaan. Nimrod sprang from Ham through Cush (Gen. 10:6-8), and he founded the city and empire Babylon. Mizraim was another of Ham’s children and he was the father of the Egyptians (Gen. 10:6 and Ps. 78:51). For a time Babylon and Egypt waxed great, but subsequently both of them were reduced to subjection, first by the Persians who descended from Shem, and later by the Greeks and Romans who were the children of Japheth. And from these early subjugations they have never recovered themselves. The whole of Africa was peopled by the descendants of Ham, and for many centuries the greater part of that continent lay under the dominion of the Romans, Saracens, and Turks. And, as is well known, the Negroes who were for so long the slaves of Europeans and Americans, also claim Ham as their progenitor.

    "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant" (v. 26). Two things are promised here: Jehovah was to be the God of Shem and Canaan was to be his servant. Shem was "the father of all the children of Eber," that is, the Hebrews (Gen. 10:21). Thus, in the Hebrews, the knowledge and worship of God was preserved in the family of Shem. The fulfillment of this part of the prophecy is well known to our readers. God was in a peculiar sense the God of the Hebrews—"And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God" (Ex. 29:45). And again, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2).

    "And Canaan shall be his (Shem’s) servant." This received its first fulfillment in the days of Joshua—"And Joshua made them (the Gibeonites) hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation" (Joshua 9:27). The following scriptures set forth its further accomplishment: "And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute" (Judges 1:28). "And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel, their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bond service unto this day" (1 Kings 9:20, 21).

    "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" (v. 27). Two things were also predicted of Japheth: first, he should be enlarged; second, he should dwell in the tents of Shem or, in other words, should receive blessing from Shem. The accomplishment of this prediction is witnessed to by history both sacred and secular. Those nations which have been most enlarged by God have descended from Japheth. The Greeks and the Romans who in their time dominated practically all of the then known world; and more recently the European Powers who have entered into the rich possessions of Asia (inhabited by the children of Shem); and, today, the Anglo-Saxon race, which occupies more territory than any other people, are all the descendants of Noah’s firstborn! In Genesis 10, where a list of Japheth’s sons is found, we read, "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands."

    "And he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" intimates that Japheth was to be Shem’s guest, that he should share the rest and shelter of Shem’s tabernacles. How remarkably has this prophecy been fulfilled spiritually! "The revelation which we prize is that of the God of Israel; the Savior in whom we trust is the seed of Abraham; the Old Testament was written principally for Israel; and the New Testament though written in a Japhetic tongue, and, therefore for us, was penned by Jewish fingers" (Urquhart). To this may be added the words of our Lord, "Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22); and that remarkable statement of the Apostle Paul’s in Romans 11 where, writing of the Gentiles, he says, "And thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them (Israel), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (v. 17). Thus do we see Japheth "dwelling in the tents of Shem."

    Who but He who knows the end from the beginning could have outlined the whole course of the three great divisions of the postdiluvian race so tersely and so accurately!..."
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    5 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
    26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant.
    27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem; And let Canaan be his servant. Gen 9

    A.W. Pink, again:

    ...."In the curse passed upon Canaan we find an exceedingly solemn instance of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children. In this day of human pride and skepticism, when everything is questioned and challenged, men have dared to criticize the ethics of this hereditary law. It has been termed unmerciful and unjust. The humble believer does not attempt to pry into things which are too deep for him, it is enough for him that the thrice holy God has instituted this law and therefore he knows it is a righteous one whether he can see the justice of it or no.

    Ham’s sin consisted of an utter failure to honor his father. He was lacking, altogether, in filial love. Had he really cared for his father at all he would have acted as his brothers did; but instead, he manifested a total disrespect for and subjection unto his parent. And mark the fearful consequence: he reaped exactly as he had sown—Ham sinned as a son and was punished in his son! The punishment meted out to Ham was that his son shall be brought into subjection to others, his descendants shall be compelled to honor, yea, "serve" others—"servant of servants" (v. 25) implies the lowest drudgery, slavery.

    It is to be noted that the "curse" uttered by Noah did not fall directly on Ham but upon one of his sons, the fourth—"Canaan " (Gen. 10:6). As we shall seek to show, this curse was not confined to Canaan but embraced all the descendants of Ham. It is highly probable that "Canaan" was specifically singled out from the rest of his brethren as a special encouragement to the Israelites who, centuries later, were to go up and occupy the Promised land. Moses would thus be taught by the Holy Spirit that a special curse rested upon the then occupants of the land, i.e., the Canaanites. Yet, as we have said, all of Ham’s children appear to have been included within the scope of this malediction as is evident from the fact that no blessing at all was pronounced upon Ham as was the case with each of his brothers." ....
     
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    34 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and Praised and Honored Him Who lives forever,

    for His Dominion is an everlasting Dominion,
    and Kis Kingdom endures from generation to generation;
    35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
    and He does according to His will among the host of heaven
    and among the inhabitants of the earth
    ;
    and none can stay His hand
    or say to him, “What have you done
    ?”

    - Daniel 4
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God breaks down barriers, in Christ.

    John 4:21-26,39-42 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

    Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
     
  11. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I see. Only your point of view should be entertained.

    Quantrill
     
  12. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Actually, you have it backwards. The Bible supported the South. So, show me where it didn't.

    Quantrill
     
  13. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Oh Gee. That sounds so 'scientific'. You must be so 'smart'.

    God says nothing about a 'gene code'. God says He created Eve from Adams rib.

    God says nothing about a black skin pigmentation as a dominant gene. I guess He is too simple to understand science's observations.

    Why are the palms of the hands of the black man white? Why are the bottom of the feet of the black man, white?

    Quantrill
     
  14. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    What a silly post.

    It is not my yardstick. It is the testimony of Scripture.

    You can whine and dine over certain shades of color to satisfy your belief that race makes no difference. But God has said race makes a difference because He says so.

    My point is that God has made divisions among mankind to 'divide'. Race is one of those divisions, and a strong division. And man is a fool to ignore it.

    And most of those 'fools' are idiotic white people who believe that all other races than theirs is superior.

    Do we have black history month in the U.S.? Do we have Hispanic history month in the U.S.? Of course we do. My how we love those cursed races of God. But do we have white history month? God forbid! That is nothing but evil and 'racist'!

    Quantrill
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Why would God say that. The Bible isn't a science book. Even so, genetics is God's work in creation.
    We see how genetics works in Genesis 30:31-43.

    He said, “What shall I give you?” Jacob said, “You shall not give me anything. If you will do this for me, I will again pasture your flock and keep it: let me pass through all your flock today, removing from it every speckled and spotted sheep and every black lamb, and the spotted and speckled among the goats, and they shall be my wages. So my honesty will answer for me later, when you come to look into my wages with you. Every one that is not speckled and spotted among the goats and black among the lambs, if found with me, shall be counted stolen.” Laban said, “Good! Let it be as you have said.” But that day Laban removed the male goats that were striped and spotted, and all the female goats that were speckled and spotted, every one that had white on it, and every lamb that was black, and put them in the charge of his sons. And he set a distance of three days’ journey between himself and Jacob, and Jacob pastured the rest of Laban’s flock. Then Jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks. He set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, the flocks bred in front of the sticks and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted. And Jacob separated the lambs and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban. He put his own droves apart and did not put them with Laban’s flock. Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding, Jacob would lay the sticks in the troughs before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the sticks, but for the feebler of the flock he would not lay them there. So the feebler would be Laban’s, and the stronger Jacob’s. Thus the man increased greatly and had large flocks, female servants and male servants, and camels and donkeys.

    Is there some reason it bothers you that Adam and Eve were beautiful black humans?
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Separation by skin color is a white supremacist teaching, not a Creator God teaching. Sadly, power hungry sinners looked for a way to boost their pride and suppress others made in the image of God. It's a non-Godly and wicked work from hell, not heaven.

    Revelation 7:9-10 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
     
  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Indeed, why would God say that? He wouldn't. Why would God do that? He didn't.

    Yes, I always hated lies. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

    There is nothing to indicate Adam and Eve were black. Nothing other than your imagination and 'your science'.

    Africa is descendants of Ham. They received no blessing and their descendants were cursed. Does that bother you that those beautiful blacks are part of that cursed race? But, just look at Africa today. What a beautiful cesspool.

    Why are all those beautiful blacks trying to immigrate to those countries of white origin? Cause their so 'beautiful'? No. Cause they cant create a country that works. They can't create anything that works. They riot, rape, destroy and murder well. Does that bother you?

    Shem received the blessing from God. From him would come the Jews and Arabs.. Japheth, the whites, would be enlarged, as he has over the world. And he would partake of those blessing of Shem, as he has.

    Quantrill
     
  18. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Just because there are believers in all nations and races of men doesn't remove God's dealings with mankind as given in (Gen. 9:25-27).

    Again, don't confuse the two.

    Quantrill
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is every genetic reason to believe Adam and Eve were black. Why does that bother you, Quantrill?

    There are no lies in my comments. There are denials, by you, that genetics is somehow not from God.
    There is a propagation of the racist theory of Ham that allows supremacists to think they are superior to another human by virtue of skin pigmentation...calling all non-whites inferior by virtue of skin pigmentation.
    Clearly God's children are from every nation, tribe and tongue without distinction. In Jesus dialogue with the woman at the well (John 4) we see Jesus breaking down all the prejudice and racist views. Jesus makes all people one, under His Lordship. In Acts we see Peter being told that there is no cultural barriers in the Kingdom of God. There is no superior race of humans.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Quantrill, the racist Curse of Ham theory has been shown to be false.
    The Curse of Ham: Getting It Horribly Wrong - TGC Africa
    At age sixteen I was first told of the curse of Ham. A man a little older than me fleetingly tried to persuade me to join a right-wing militant organisation. His starting point was to try and persuade me from scripture that black African people were a cursed race descended from Noah’s son, Ham.

    This was a startling conversation for me. I had been brought up reading my Bible but I was unaware of this curse. But having studied it now I am even further from being a recruit. Rather it has filled me with a deepening awareness of two things. First, I am increasingly aware of both the inclination of humans to turn everything to wickedness; and, secondly, of God’s awe-inspiring grace towards humans.

    The Curse of Ham used for Wickedness

    Here is the passage of Scripture in which the curse of Ham appears: “[Noah] drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father’s nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers.” He also said, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant”’ (Genesis 9:21-27).

    I am increasingly aware of both the inclination of humans to turn everything to wickedness and of God’s awe-inspiring grace towards humans

    So here is the infamous curse of Ham. This curse has played a part in the oppression of black African nations through the centuries. Most particularly this influence has been present in the Atlantic slave trade, in Nazi Germany and in Apartheid South Africa. However, there are two things we need to understand about this passage before we succumb to the grace-reducing misapplication of the curse of Ham.

    Getting the Facts Straight

    Scripture tells us that Noah had seventeen grandsons. And from their names we have a pretty good – if not perfect – idea which nations developed from which grandchildren. Four of those grandchildren were Ham’s four sons: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan (Genesis 10:6). The Canaanites settled in the Middle East. They appear frequently in the Old Testament of the Bible. For the most part they have dissolved into other nations or died out. Egypt is even more obvious. For it is a nation that appears often in scripture and is still present today.

    There is no record of a biblical curse put on the descendants of Cush or the nations of Africa

    In biblical Hebrew, the name ‘Cush’ seems to mean ‘Ethiopian’ or ‘blackness’. Black African nations seemingly developed from the offspring of Cush. But that is exactly where the so-called curse of Ham is misapplied. The curse never fell on Ham or on Cush. For whatever reason, not truly given in the text, it fell on Canaan. In Genesis 9:25 Noah pours out his anger, ‘Cursed be Canaan!’ There is no record of a biblical curse put on the descendants of Cush or the nations of Africa.

    Getting the Context Straight

    But there is a broader context to this curse of Ham. All mankind is under a curse – whether we are offspring of Shem, Ham or Japheth. Adam and Eve, our original forebears, already disobeyed the Lord God when they ate of the forbidden fruit: “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:17).

    Just before the event known as the curse of Ham, God did wipe out all of mankind, except for Noah’s family, in a flood. God immediately issued a chilling warning to those who survived the flood: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image” (Genesis 9:6). God clearly harbours no illusions about the righteousness of mankind despite the awful punishment that he had just meted out! Even though God almost completely wiped out mankind in the flood, he had no doubt that they would sin again—and soon!

    Whether you are of the line of Shem, Ham or Japeth there is no distinction; all fall short of the glory of God

    The New Testament does not alter this message one bit. When quoting Psalm 14 Paul says, “there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:22-23). Whether you are of the line of Shem, Ham or Japeth there is no distinction; all fall short of the glory of God.

    Awe-Inspiring Grace instead of the Curse of Ham

    And yet incomprehensibly God shows an unwavering commitment to the people of the earth. He chose not to wipe out the entire human race in the flood. He chose to reiterate his command to “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 9:1), and he chose to make a covenant with Noah and his offspring (Genesis 9:9).

    Nine generations later; God reaffirmed this covenant to Abraham: “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). Centuries later Jesus instructed his followers to make “disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19). Paul confirms this teaching; that this grace, despite our wickedness, is available to anyone from all nations in Jesus Christ: “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:22).

    The exhilarating, time-tested, awe-inspiring blessing of grace is available to all of us who believe in Jesus Christ

    Whether you are a descendent of Shem, Ham or Japheth; whether you have a curse like the curse of Ham upon you or not; you live under the curse of death. Your ongoing inclination is to sin, to turn everything to wickedness.

    But the exhilarating, time-tested, awe-inspiring blessing of grace is available to all of us who believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. There is now no curse that can separate us from the love of Christ and nothing in all of life that can beat the joy of this God-given grace.

    There is now no curse that can separate us from the love of Christ and nothing in all of life that can beat the joy of this God-given grace

    Stephen Le Feuvre trained as a teacher and has worked in teaching and school management for 20 years. Stephen attends Emmanuel Church, Port Elizabeth, South Africa and enjoys being involved in preaching and teaching at Emmanuel Church, Word of Life Church, and through Precept bible classes.

    He has been married to his wife, Alex, for 19 years and has four children that he now home schools. His regular blog on Bible and life can be found at rejoicingwiththetruth.com.
     
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