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Featured Is God The Father Fons Deitatis?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jun 20, 2022.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Is God The Father Fons Deitatis?

    This phrase refers to God the Father as the “origin and cause” of the Son’s Being within the Godhead, as God. It represents the “Θεὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ”, of the Nicene Creed of AD 325. Literally it reads, “God out of God”, which makes the Father as the “source” from Who the “essential character” of the Son is derived. The Father alone is seen as “unoriginated”, and the Son as “originated” from the Father.

    In His book, The Oecumenical Documents of the Faith, Dr T Herbert Bindley, deals with the language used in the formation of the Nicene Creed, on the phrase, “Θεὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ, these words, as we have seen, were taken from the Creed of Caesarea. The preposition (ἐκ) denotes origin and derivation from the Father as Fons Deitatis. The absolute possession of life from another is the essential character of Sonship; John v.26; comp. viii.42, xvi.28” (page 30)

    The Creed of Caesarea was drawn up by the Church historian, Eusebius, who was infulenced by the heretic, Origen (F J Foakes Jackson; The History of the Christian Church, p. 168). Amongst the heresies of Origen, he taught that God the Father “eternally generated” the substance of the Son. Eusebius himself was pro Arius, another heretic, and also infulenced by the theology of Origen, as we can see in another phrase in his “Creed”, “πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ πατρὸς γεγεννημένον (begotten out of God the Father before all ages)”. “γεγεννημένον”, is from “γεννάω”, which is also used for “generation”. “The eternal generation of the Son from the will of the Father was, with Origen, the communication of a divine but secondary substance” (Schaff's History of the Church). This heresy was also taken up by some of the Orthodox Church fathers, “Alexander, bishop of Alexandria, made earnest of the Origenistic doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son (which was afterwards taught by Athanasius and the Nicene creed, but in a deeper sense, as denoting the generation of a person of the same substance from the substance of the Father, and not of a person of different substance from the will of the Father), and deduced from it the homo-ousia or consubstantiality of the Son with the Father” (Schaff). The Nicene Creed adopted some of the heretical language of the Creed of Caesarea. “γεννηθέντα ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς μονογενῆ. τουτέστιν ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ Πατρος. Θεὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ” (begotten out of the Father, only-begotten, that is, out of the substance of the Father, God out of God)” etc.

    It is clear, that the Christology of Origen is “Subordinationism”, which teaches that the Father alone is God absolute, and the Son and Holy Spirit are “Secondaries”, and can be called, “god”, or “divine”. Of which we are told;

    “But on the other hand he distinguishes the essence of the Son from that of the Father; speaks of a difference of substance (ἑτερότης τῆς οὐσίας,or τοῦ ὑποκειμενου which the advocates of his orthodoxy, probably without reason, take as merely opposing the Patripassian conception of the ὁμουσία); and makes the Son decidedly inferior to the Father, calling him, with reference to Joh 1:1 merely θεός without the article, that is God in a relative sense (Deus de Deo), also δεύτερος θεός, but the Father God in the absolute sense, ὁ θεός (Deus per se), or αὐτόθεος, also the fountain and root of the divinity (πηγή, ῥίζα τῆς θεότητος)” (James Strong and John McClintock; The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature)

    Origen is wrong on the Greek grammar of John 1:1, which has more to do with his theology, than his knowledge of the Greek language.

    When John writes, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”, he does not mean that “ὁ λόγος”, is a “secondary god”, as suggested by Origen, and the Jehovah's Witnesses do. We have seen that the use and non use of the Greek article, does not denote a different meaning for “θεος”. What we have is a simple sentence structure. “Every sentence must contain two parts, a subject and a predicate. The subject is that of which something is stated. The predicate is that which is stated of the subject…A predicate noun or adjective seldom has the article” (William Goodwin, Greek Grammar, sec. 890, 956, pp.196, 208)

    “General rule, The subject has the article, while the predicate is without it” (William Jelf, A Grammar of the Greek Language, sec. 460, p.120). In John 1:1, the “subject” is no doubt, “The Word”, as it is about Him. The “predicate” in this last sentence, is “θεος”, which is a statement about the “subject”. John is here stating, that “The Word”, is “God”, as much as “The God”, besides (πρὸς) Whom He is. In John 8:54, Jesus says to the Jews, “εστιν ο πατηρ μου ο δοξαζων με ον υμεις λεγετε οτι θεος υμων εστιν”, which is literally, “it is My Father Who Glorifies Me, Who you say that God your He is”. Here, “ο πατηρ μου (My Father)” is the subject, and “θεος”, is the predicate. It is never translated as “god”, or “a god”. So why different in John 1:1, where the grammatical construction is the same?

    For the sake of argument, let us suppose that John should have written, “καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”. Had John written this, then he would have meant that “ὁ λόγος”, was identical to “τὸν θεόν”, in the previous sentence. Grammatically, however, he had just written, “καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, where the use of the preposition, “πρὸς”, is clear that two distinct Persons are meant. It becomes a contradiction, and confusing, if he wrote, “καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”.

    One of the verses used to “prove” that God the Father is “Fons Deitatis”, as we have seen, is John 5:26, which is spoken by Jesus Christ, about Himself.

    “ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ἔχει ζωὴν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, οὕτως καὶ τῷ υἱῷ ἔδωκεν ζωὴν ἔχειν ἐν ἑαυτῷ”

    “For just as the Father has Life in Himself, in this way even to the Son He gave Life to have in Himself” (literal translation)

    Jesus says that the Father, “ἔχει ζωὴν ἐν ἑαυτῷ”, “possesses life in Himself”; and then goes on to say, that He also, “ζωὴν ἔχειν ἐν ἑαυτῷ”, “possesses life in Himself”. “ὥσπερ” says that this is in exactly the same way. The Amplified Bible says what the Greek does, “is self-existent…Son to have life in Himself and be self-existent”. The Greek grammarian, Dr Samuel Green, says on the use of “ζωὴν”, here, “a title of Christ, as the source of life, John v.26” (Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, p. 444). Jesus is very clear in what He is saying. EXACTLY AS the Father possesses life in Himself, and is self-existent, and the source of life; so too I possess life in Myself, and am self-existent, and the source of life. There is no distinction between the Father and Himself, as Almighty God.

    In both places, “ἔχει” and “ἔχειν”, are in the “present continuance tense”, used for the “Eternal Life” that is in the Father and in Jesus Christ. In 1 John 1:1, Jesus Christ is called, “τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς (the Word of the Life)”, and in verse 2, “καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη (and the Life was Manifested). John goes on to say of Jesus, “τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα”, that is, “the Life the Eternal Who was with the Father”. It does not say, “ἥτις ἦν ἐξ τὸν πατέρα”, “Who was out of the Father”, where the Greek preposition, “ἐξ” would have been used. By using “πρὸς”, it is clear that Jesus Christ, Who is here “The Eternal Life”, is “from the side of, near”, which shows a clear distinction, and not dependence. In John 1:1, John says of Jesus Christ, Who is “the Word (ὁ λόγος)”, Who is, “πρὸς τὸν θεόν (with the God)”, same Greek preposition as in 1 John 1:2, showing distinction. John then goes on to say, “καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”, which according to the Greek grammar of this passage, in its context, can only read, “and the Word was God”, in exactly the same sense the Father is God. This is clear from verse 18 in the oldest and best textual evidence, “θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς (God no one has seen at any time the Unique God)”, where both uses of “θεὸς”, do not have the Greek article (τὸν, ὁ), with the same meaning, Two distinct Persons, Who are equally GOD. In verse 4, it says of Jesus, that, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν (in Him was Life)”, where the Greek preposition “ἐν” means “in His Person”, as the “source of life”.

    In Acts 3:15, Peter says of Jesus Christ, “τὸν δὲ Ἀρχηγὸν τῆς ζωῆς ἀπεκτείνατε”, literally, “but the Source of life you killed”. The noun “ἀρχηγός”, has the meanings, “a first cause, originator, founder”. In Hebrews 2:10, Jesus is called “the author of their salvation (ASV); and “the source of their salvation (CSB). In Hebrews 12:2, “Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, (NAS); “Jesus, the source and perfecter of our faith (CSB).

    In John 11:25, Jesus says of Himself, “Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἀνάστασις καὶ ἡ ζωή”, “I AM The Resurrection and The Life”. In 14:6, “Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ὁδὸς καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια καὶ ἡ ζωή (I AM The Way and The Truth and The Life”. Again, in Revelation chapter one, were we read of Jesus Christ Appearing to the Apostle John, and says to him, “ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος, καὶ ὁ ζῶν (present active indicative)” (verses 17, 18), which is literally, “I Am The First and The Last, and The Ever-Living One”. Dr Joseph Thayer, the Unitarian Greek scholar, has this to say, “ὁ πρῶτος καί ὁ ἔσχατος, i. e. the eternal One, Rev 1:17; Rev 2:8; Rev 22:13” (Greek Lexicon on πρῶτος). In the Book of Isaiah, we read of Yahweh, Who says, “´ánî ri´šôn wa´ánî ´ahárôn ûmibbal`äday ´ên ´élöhîm (I The First and I The Last, and beside Me no god)”. The Greek Old Testament (LXX) reads, “ἐγὼ πρῶτος καὶ ἐγὼ μετὰ ταῦτα”, literally, “I am the first, and I am hereafter”. In Exodus 3:14, where the Speaker is “Mal'ak Yehovah” (verse 2), “The Messenger of Yahweh”, or “The One sent by Yahweh”, Who says to Moses when asked about His Name, “Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν”, “I AM The Eternal One”, which is what Jesus says in Revelation 1:18, “ὁ ζῶν”, “The Ever-Living One”.
     
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    cont

    John 5:26, cannot be taken on its own, as it connects with verse 27, where Jesus goes on to say, “καὶ ἐξουσίαν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ κρίσιν ποιεῖν, ὅτι υἱὸς ἀνθρώπου ἐστίν”, which is, “and Authority He appointed Him, to execute Judgement, because the Son of Man He is”. The same verb, “ἔδωκεν”, which is in verse 26, is also in verse 27. In verse 22 Jesus says, “For the Father judges no one, but has appointed all judgment to the Son” (NKJV). Where the word “committed” is the Greek word, “δέδωκεν”, which is from “δίδωμι”.

    “δίδωμι”, does not only have the meaning, “to give something to someone, which they never had before”. In Mark 4:25, Jesus says, “For whoever has, to him more shall be given (δοθησεται, from δίδωμι)”. In John 17:24, Jesus says, “Then they may see My glory, which You have given (δέδωκάς, from δίδωμι) Me”. In verse 5 we read, “Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had (εἶχον, imperfect, “I have always had”) with (παρὰ, “together with You”) You before the world existed”. The verb also has the meanings, “to appoint, to grant, to allow, to assign, to hand over, deliver up”, etc.

    If Jesus’ “Life” is “derived” from the Father, which would indeed make Him “δεύτερος-θεός”, then it would have been impossible for Jesus to have said what He does, in verse 23, “that all may Honor the Son, just as they Honor the Father. Whoever does not Honor the Son does not Honor the Father who sent Him”. Can someone Who is “inferior” to God the Father, make such a claim? If we do not “Honor” Jesus Christ, we do not “Honor”, the Father, Who sent Him. The use of the conjunction, “οτι (because)”, gives the reason for what is said in verses 26-27, “He is the Son of Man”. Jesus Christ, The Son of Man, while on earth, Acted in complete agreement with the Father in everything that He did, which is what Jesus Himself says in John 5:19, “So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise”. These words are in response to what Jesus had told the Jews, that, “My Father is working until now, and I am working” (ver 17), which enraged the Jews, who then even more wanted to murder Jesus, “because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ θεῷ)” (18). The Jews clearly understood Jesus as saying that He was GOD, and equal to GOD The Father.

    As the Father “appointed” Jesus Christ as “Heir of all things” (Hebrews 1:2); and had “appointed” Jesus Christ as The Judge of all. Likewise, He has “appointed” the Son as “the giver of life”. This is all true of the Incarnate Son, and has nothing to do with the eternal relationship between the Father and Jesus Christ, as is clear in passages like John 1:18, which is seen in the words, “ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς”, literally, “Who is eternally in the Bosom of the Father”. This verse shows the absolute equality and distinction of Persons, of the Father and Jesus Christ.

    The other two verses mentioned by Bindley, John 8:42, and 16:28, have no bearing on language of the Nicene Creed.

    “Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, because I came from God and I am here. For I didn't come on My own, but He sent Me” (John 8:42)

    “For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father” (John 16:27-28)

    In the first passage, we have, “ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον (for I out of God came forth)”, which is actually reference to Jesus’ Deity, as, “ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ” here refers to the “Godhead”. Jesus does not say, “ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ πατρός ἐξῆλθον”. Though “ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ” is in the language of the Creeds, yet their application is different, as they sought to show from this the “eternal generation”, which is not what it says.

    In the passage in chapter 16, the word “from”, is in the Greek, “παρα”, which denotes “nearness”, and not “origin”. In verse 28, the words, “and going to the Father”, are in the Greek, “καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα (and going to be with the Father)”. Interesting, that some textual evidence, including the Codex Vacatinus, reads, “ἐξῆλθον ἐκ τοῦ πατρὸς (came out of the Father). No doubt this change was made to reflect the teaching of “eternal generation”.

    Another verse that has been referred to, that is supposed to teach that the Father is the “source” of the Son’s Life, is John 6:57

    “Just as (ὥσπερ, as in 5:26) the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me”

    Here Jesus uses, “ὁ ζῶν Πατὴρ” (the Living Father), as He said of Himself in Revelation 1:18, “ὁ ζῶν (the Living One), in both places we have the use of the continued, present. Jesus says that He Lives, “διὰ τὸν Πατέρα”, that is with the accusative in the Greek, “the ground” (ratio), i.e, “because the Father Lives”; and not with the genitive, as “the means of”, Jesus’ Life. His Life is essentially one with the Father. He also says in John 14:10, 11, “Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me?... Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me”. And, as we have seen, “The Father and I We are one thing” (10:30). As both the Father and Jesus Christ are equally essentially GOD, it is impossible for their “Lives” to be independent of one another, as their Lives are One and the same.

    Psalm 2:7 is also used by some, for this teaching of the Father “eternally begetting” the Son, in the Godhead.

    “I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you”

    The words, “ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε (today I have begotten you)”, has nothing to do with “eternal generation” of Jesus Christ from the Father. But, rather is a Prophecy of the Conception of Jesus Christ in the womb of the Virgin Mary (Matthew 1:16, ἐξ ἧς ἐγεννήθη, “out of you [fiminine singular] is conceived”). We have in this Prophecy in the 2nd Pslam, a definite time, “TODAY”, which is fulfilled in the Birth of Jesus Christ, as is very clear in Acts 13:33.

    “God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has Raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'”

    This “raised up” (αναστησας), is not as in the KJV, which reads, “raised up Jesus again”, where there is no Greek word for “again”, and does not refer to the Resurrection, which is seen in verse 34, “Since He raised Him from the dead, never to return to decay, He has spoken in this way, I will grant you the faithful covenant blessings made to David”. Rather, as in another Prophecy of the Coming Messiah, in Deuteronomy 18:15, “The LORD your God will Raise up (ἀναστήσει) for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear”, Acts 13:33, speaks of the First Coming of Jesus Christ. Which is also seen in Acts 3:22, “For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The LORD your God will Raise up (ἀναστήσει) for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you”. And also in Acts 7:33, “This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will Raise up (ἀναστήσει) for you a prophet like me from your brothers”. Hebrews 1:5-6 is conclusive that this Psalm is speaking of the First Coming of Jesus Christ.

    “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him”

    “γεγέννηκά” (Begotten) refers to the First Coming”, and “πρωτότοκον” (First-Born), to the Second Coming, “πάλιν”, “again, once more”.

    The fact that the Bible speaks of Jesus Christ as “Yahweh”, as it does of the Father and Holy Spirit. Which, according to the Hebrew, means;

    “he one bringing into being, life-giver, giver of existence, creator, he who brings to pass, he one who is: i.e. the absolute and unchangeable one, the existing, ever living, as self-consistent and unchangeable” (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew Lexicon). And, “The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives"” (The Jewish Encyclopaedia)

    It is impossible that any Person in the Trinity/Godhead, can be the “source” of the Other, as they are equally “the existing, ever living”, and “uncreated”.
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. John 1:1-3, ". . . and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ."
    Otherwise there would be no need of the Word being God with God.
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Exactly what are you saying
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL. A lot of verbage trying to deny that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father. That doesn't mean He has a beginning. So, yes, God from God. That's clear from their titles, Father and Son. But not in the carnal notion you hold of that.

    You rob the Trinity of its life and dynamic, and of the love between the Persons, and you rob the Persons of their individuality by trying to erase any difference, a difference clearly revealed, between them.
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Son was always the Son. The notion of being eternally begotten is irrational and not Biblical.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That the Son is the sole cause on behalf of the Father. John 1:3, John 5:18-19. They are the same Yahweh.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    You obviously don't understand what it means to be God. If the Father begets the Son within the Godhead, then the Father is God absolute and Jesus Christ is inferior and cannot be God but god
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    No what you are saying is the philosophy of Philo and not what the Bible actually teaches
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not so. Prove that I am. What John 1:3 and John 5:18-19 teach are explicit. Along with other passages not cited here.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

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    The Father is as much as God as Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. They are 100% co-equal and co-eternal and co-essential in the Godhead
     
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  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Acts 2:30
    Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2 Tim 2:8
    And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:31,32
    For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. Heb 7:14 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

    True nor false?

    When?

    What about:
    And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Heb 7:9,10 Was Levi going to be, before Levi was? What about Jesus of Nazareth, was Jesus of Nazareth in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec?


    John 8:54-58 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Ex 3:14

    From Wikipedia
    "I Am that I Am" is a common English translation of the Hebrew phrase אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎‎ (’ehye ’ăšer ’ehye; pronounced [ʔehˈje ʔaˈʃer ʔehˈje])– also "I am who I am", "I will become what I choose to become", "I am what I am", "I will be what I will be", "I create what(ever) I create", or "I am the Existing One".[1] The traditional English translation within Judaism favors "I will be what I will be" because the imperfective aspect in Modern Hebrew is normally used for future tense and there is no present tense with directt of the verb "to be" in the Hebrew language

    Why could not what God told Moses be prophecy?

    John 7:39 YLT and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Was the Word going to be I Am, in the flesh, before Abraham was?

    Did God send himself, the Word, in the flesh, Emmanuel, through the virgin woman Mary? Gen 3:15 Rom 16:20

    and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'
    and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly (in quickness); the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! <<<< which I believe to be, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

    How does any of that take away from the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, GOD?

    Is not all above what the Word God states?
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    I am not sure what you are trying to say
     
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Did God send himself, the Word, in the flesh, Emmanuel, through the virgin woman Mary? Gen 3:15 Rom 16:20


    Was that not the very purpose for the foundation of the world and the creation of man with the woman taken from him?

    Is the following the answer to, Why?

    1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Before the foundation of the world, how was the Son of God going to be manifested?

    and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers,
    and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
    Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --
    From Hebrews 2

    It was always about God and the devil..

    Man of flesh and blood and the Son of God the Son of man of flesh and blood, was going to be the means.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In the beginning was God in Three Eternal Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There was never a time when God the Father Existed but God the Son did not exist. That claim, if made is unbiblical and wrong.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    The Sonship of Jesus Christ is Incarnational
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Posting vague assertions implying nothing pro or con is the stock and trade of deceivers.

    Does scripture refer to the pre-incarnate Second Person of the Trinity as "Son?" You bet! The Logos is that which accomplishes God's purpose.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Can you quote ONE verse in the entire Old Testament that speaks of the Father and Son relationship?
     
  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Full grown or conceived of woman Like 1:31,32?


    Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
     
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