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Is God unjust?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Jan 3, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, I would like to see the scriptural support specifically for the INWARD working of the Holy Spirit. Scriptures that speak of the Spirit's intervention could very well be in refence to the Holy Spirit's work in bringing the Gospel message. After all, the gospel is the work of the Spirit. So to argue that man can't be saved without a work of th Spirit is not a good arguement because we don't disagree with that. We disagree about the fact that you try to add an extra working of the Spirit beside what He has done through the gospel message.

    That is the problem I have with Calvinism, it makes the Gospel alone insuffcient to bring salvation yet scripture clearly teaches us it is the power of God unto salvation.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Skandelion said:
    Well, I guess it is my turn to ask for scriptural support that salvation has to be accepted in order to take effect. One thing with Arminianism is that it says God is great and that God is sovereign, but insists that He has limited His sovereignty when it comes to the ability of man to accept or reject salvation. God says this:

    Skandelion also said:
    Oh, I don't have to get around the universal offer simply because there is no universal offer. Salvation is a gift , given to those whom God wills to save, assuming of course that when we speak of the gospel's offer we are talking about eternal salvation.

    Skandelion also said when I said:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    God elected certain individuals to receive that gift. He gave them the gift, secured for them by Christ, on the cross. And then he quickened them, in order for them to receive faith. They were not quickened because they had faith, they had faith because they were quickened first.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I need some biblical evidence here.

    Okay, how about these:

    The spiritually dead cannot exercise faith to believe and obey the gospel which is how you receive its message because he is dead and the term "not of yourselves" excludes any conscious action of receiving. The fact that God quickens some, but not all, of the dead, gives proof of election to eternal salvation and the atonement through the blood being limited only for those whom he quickens.

    I will end this here, and start another on the last part of Skandelion's post.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I said that the faith that God honored unto our salvation is the faith of Christ, and that is because the language the Bible uses to describe the sinner as being dead in sins and trespasses necessarily implies inability to practice or possess saving faith in Christ.

    Skandelion said:

    Those who translated the King James version did a correct translation in this case, but that direction will take us to a discussion of which is the better translation, which is not your thread's purpose. For the record, I am not a KJVO, but a KJV Preferred person. And in this case, it proves why the KJV is the one I prefer.

    What you are actually saying is that Christ's faith need not be imputed to sinners whom the Bible calls dead in sin and trespasses because the sinner is quite capable of exercising saving faith themselves. That makes Christ's work not 100% necessary for us.

    You see, if we follow what you are saying, then dead sinners are quite capable of God-pleasing righteousness also and yet Isaiah 64:6 tells us that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"
    before God, and Titus 3:5 tells us that we are saved not by works of righteousnesses which we have done but according to God's mercy.

    Following your line of thinking will make it unnecessary for God to impute Christ's holiness to us, since dead sinners can exercise God pleasing holiness also without which no man can see God, but we know we are unable to do this also, because God has already likened our dead, inability to a leopard who cannot change its spots, or to the Ethiopian who cannot change the color of his skin.

    Therefore, the King James translators were correct in their translation because that translation does not in anyway detract from the truth that we have no inherent faith, no inherent righteousness, no inherent holiness, and all these things are credited to our account because of Christ, after which having been credited, we are to practice faith, practice holiness and practice righteousness, which is, to use Paul's term, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

    That is why we are also said to be "hid in Christ", "accepted in the beloved", because all our unrighteousnesses and lack of faith and holiness are covered by the blood of the Lamb, so when God looks at us, he sees Christ our covering.

    And that is why it is said we have Christ in us, because He indwells us through the Holy Spirit, and "works in us to will and to do His good pleasure."
     
  4. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    If God chooses whom he will have mercy on and whom he will have wrath on.

    then does it matter what man does for or against his salvation?

    for the exercise of this thread (of God being or not being unjust).

    If God chooses who will be the members of the bride, the friends of the bridegroom. or even the fools or the "antichrists".
    If all of these followers are those whom God has called for his own purposes. where specifically is this dividing line which God himself draws that one can not cross over.

    its at the cross of Gods sacrifice.

    does all,or both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy agree that Jesus died for the sins of the world?

    both groups agree absolutely. a sacrifice is necessary to remove "sin".

    but the difference between members of the children of disobedience (wrath) and children of obedience (mercy) lies in understanding or not understanding in the "baptism of water" and "the baptism of blood".

    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    another way to elude to the same operation. born of water (death). and born of spirit (or blood) (in christ).

    being "quickened" is a short and vauqe answer, yet to receive quickening one must be baptised in water and baptised in blood (spirit)..and this is an operation of God alone.

    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
    1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
    1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    we must die to self will and accept the will of God. and God himself covers us in death with the righteous body (life) of christ. this is the dividing line.

    and accomplishing this is all a work of God.

    we're all just puppets,

    or does man have "free will" like the arminians state?
    do they raise man to diety status?

    I wonder what part of God being 100% sovereign dont arminians accept?

    Me2
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I sooo badly want to reply to all of these agruments but my wife and I are preparing to go on a trip and will be gone for several days. I don't want to further upset her by staying on the board all evening. Please forgive me and I'll get to answering your responses as soon as I can.

    Thanks for your patience.
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, I've got a minute or two to handle a few things...

    This is by no means an exhaustive search but here are a couple of verses (one from the OT and one from the NT) that refer to "taking" salvation.
    Also consider the numerous commands of scripture that call ALL to repent and believe. The command itself implies ability to respond. You seem to want to do away with that response all together. Most Calvinists I know don't go that far. They typically argue that we must receive or take it but we only do so because the Holy Spirit compelled us to do so. Are you arguing that there is nothing to be accepted? That is a bit unorthodox for Calvinism, isn't it?
     
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    PB in an earlier thread you wrote:
    Now you say
    This seems to be a contradiction. Is the gospel not a univeral offer or call to salvation? Again this seems unorthodox for Calvinism. Can any other Calvinists on this board chime in here and let us know if this is a what is typical of Calvinism? You seem to be mixing two distinct concepts. The gospel being preached (read) and the gospel being believed are two different things. Both must happen but are separate. When I speak of an "offer" I'm speaking of the presentation of the Gospel to "all creatures." How is that not an offer?
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You used Eph 2 in order to support all these claims? I don't see how you draw all these conclusions based upon the fact that Paul likens lost people with being "dead".

    These is a common Calvinistic argument and I don't believe it holds water because Paul's analogy of being dead doesn't mean total inability in other contexts. Paul refers to Christians as being dead to sin. Does that mean Christians don't have the ability to sin? We all wish that were the case, but we know it's not. This is a great hermenutical leap that your willing to take because of the preconceptions you're bring to this text.

    And anyone who has studied Eph. 2:8-9 at any depth knows that the term "this is not of yourselves" could very well be linked to the word "Grace" or to the process of salvation as a whole. Even if it could be conclusively support the Calvinistic premise. Afterall everything comes from God, even faith. The ability to believe is a gift of Christ. The real debate is who all has that ability. I believe that everyone has faith, which is the belief in the unseen, some just place that faith in other beings besides Christ. Either way this arguement fails to say what you need it to say to prove your claims.

    Plus, why would Jesus rebuke people for their lack of faith if it were not their responsiblity to act? If you are right here Christ shouldn't rebuke people for their lack of faith, he should rebuke God for not giving them the faith in which to act. This makes Christ's words into non-sense.
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok last one and I've got to go...

    Why is it that Calvinists think its not possible for man to have a free will in salvation and God remain 100% sovereign?

    Is that the one thing God can't do? He can't give man freedom because it will detrail his sovereignty? This is absurd.

    Let me ask some questions: Do men today have a free choice to make in salvation? Did Adam and Eve have a free choice to make in the garden? Has man ever made a free choice? (when I say free I mean without God's compelling force determining the answer)

    If the answer to any of these question is YES, then you too "limit" God's sovereignty in the same manner you accuse Arminians of "limiting" God's sovereignty.

    If you answer all of these questions NO, then you absolutely must hold God accountable for sin. The scripture is quite clear that this is not the case because he has not even tempted anyone to sin, much less compelled them to do so. (got to go...) [​IMG]
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Hello, Skandelon, good morning.

    You have three posts, so let me answer them in order. This is for post 1. There you said:

    First, let me correct something. I am not Calvinist, I am Calvinistic. To the Calvinist, such as Pastor Larry and others here, there is only one kind of salvation in the Bible, and that is, eternal salvation. I am sure you, and they, will agree in that.

    To me, a Primitive Baptist, and to the majority of PB's, there are two kinds of salvation spoken of in the Bible. One is eternal , which is for the elect to know that their salvation has been secured by the Son of God, to which they can not add or subtract anything, entirely of God, unconditional as to good works, breed, tongue, nation, creed.

    The other is timely salvation, that is, obedience to the gospel saves one from the consequences of sin in this life. This salvation is conditional and directly related to gospel obedience. A gospel church instructs its members in Godly living as in Christ's words, "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway *, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

    Undoubtedly, the word of God being quick (alive) and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, will benefit even those whom we call unbelievers if they follow the practical teachings of Scripture, but, is of no benefit to them in the eternal sense for they will not recognize Christ as their Savior nor themselves dead in sins and trespasses unless they have been regenerated by the Spirit of God.

    As to your question "is the gospel not a universal call to salvation" ? I have already answered that and said no there is no universal call to salvation, either eternal or timely. I do not know how Calvinists view the gospel in relation to salvation, whether they view the gospel as necessary to regeneration and therefore salvation, or whether they view it as unnecessary to regeneration and therefore salvation. In fact, I have been rebuked by no less than the much respected Dr. Bob Griffin in one of the threads here. It seems I have said something which he perceived as Calvinist bashing.
    There is a command to preach the gospel to every creature not as an offer of eternal salvation (we shall hereafter treat your view as only one salvation), but, as a gospel of [finished, delivered, done] salvation given as a gift to His people, and not a possible gift based on their response (which I believe is your position).
    It is good news to the mourning sinner who mourns his sinfulness because God had quickened him and opened his spiritual eyes to his true spiritual condition.
    It is good news to know that God, the all merciful God, had, knowing that His people are but flesh, did not consume them in His wrath, but, instead, in mercy provided a way of escape, and that is His Son, Jesus Christ, and Him alone.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Skandelon:

    In your second post you said:
    First, Paul may have written the Epistle to the Ephesians but you know and I know that the real author of that letter is the Holy Spirit.

    Second, the Holy Spirit did not say men were "dead-like". He said "you hath he quickened, who were dead ..."

    Also, you wrote:
    Now, let me point out that being "dead in sin and trespasses" is heremeneutically different from being "dead to sin". The error is yours, not mine. The unregenerate, the unquickened, is dead in sin and trespasses and therefore unmindful of the coming wrath, unmindful of the grace of God, unmindful of his sinfulness. He is not a, in your words, Christian.

    The Christian is dead to sin, in the sense that these things no longer attract him, the world carries no attraction to him, again, in Paul's words, "I am crucified with Christ...." While he may have the ability (I would rather say, capability) to sin, the Christian has now a new, living nature in him (remember Romans 6 and 7 ?). He has been given the resources to resist sin, he has the whole armour of God available to him, he can feed his new nature with spiritual food through God's Word which to him is altogether desirable, he has the Spirit testifying to his spirit that he is a son of God, he is a new creature.

    The unregenerate, however, do not have all these. He is totally dead, totall unable to resist sin, totally unable to comprehend the things of the spirit, interested only in the world and what he can get from it, he is an old wineskin, an old creature, he is in Adam and therefore, dead.

    So, really, it is the Arminian's position which cannot hold water - that man, while dead in sin, is capable of responding to God's call, and has the free will to do so. The unregenerate man's "will" is bound to his old, dead nature.

    You also said:

    Well, let's link it to grace then. If grace is given on account of one's faith, then grace is of works, and is no more grace. If grace is given, faith or no faith, then it is all of grace, and none of works. Same thing with salvation, if salvation is granted because in his free will man chose to place his faith in Christ, then salvation is a reward, given on the basis of his faith, therefore it is no more grace but works. If salvation is granted because God chose to give it as a gift to an undeserving faithless sinner whom He, of His sovereign choice, chose to love from the foundation of the world, then it is purely grace and none of works.

    Ahhh, a point of agreement, at last. [​IMG]

    ....and unless God opens their spiritual eyes, their faith will be on other things and never in Christ. So, you see, saving faith is not inherent in man. It is something that God gives to those to whom He chooses to give it, it is not something that man looks at, of his own volition, and say, "oh, wow ! this faith is in the wrong side, better put it there on the right side."

    What is it that Father Abraham said to the rich man in hell who asked that somebody be sent to his kin with information ?
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    To your last post, Skandelion.

    There you asked:
    Because God Himself said so. Here:

    Now, is God's glory and His sovereignty intertwined, or not.

    By the way, in Acts, Paul referred to the above scriptures to point out that he was prophesied about in the Old Testament, too.

    You also asked:

    No, they do not. God ordained whom He ordained to eternal life because it was His good pleasure to do so. If God allowed man "free" choice none will be saved.

    Yes. And if you will receive it, they are the only humans to whom God gave free choice, with fair warnings, and they blew it. The result is given to us, their posterity, in Romans 5:12, 19.

    Yes. And their free choice is always contrary to God's will. God told the Israelites "choose life" (Deut. 30:19) and they chose death. God told man, using Pontius Pilate's lips, "whom will ye that I release unto you ? Barrabas ? or Jesus which is called Christ ?" They chose Barrabas.(Matthew 27:17).


    And then you said:

    On the contrary. God allowing Adam and Eve freedom to choose or disobey only highlights the sovereignty (absolute rule) of God in that when left unchecked man showed in the garden that he wanted no absolutes in his life. After all, that is what the term "be as gods" means. The freedom to determine one's morals, the freedom to determine one's approach to God, the freedom from a God who tells man what to do, say, think, and how to relate to Him and to his fellow men.

    Lastly, you said:

    Hold God accountable for sin ? Again, absolutely not. The origin of sin in the world was the rebellion of man in Adam in the garden (Romans 5:12, 19). God warned man fairly, "on the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." Man ate, therefore he died. Man is totally responsible for his sin, and for his damnation.

    Cheerio ! [​IMG]
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Nah uuh your wrong. This could go on endlessly. Who says that dead means what you say it means. Paul certainly doesn't go into any kind of explaination so you can only speculate. That is my point. Your claims are baseless. You only have your opinion of what you think Paul must have meant when he used the term "dead."

    To say that someone being dead must mean they are unable to respond to the powerful revealing truth of the gospel message is a link the scripture never makes. To do so is to go beyond the text.


    Says who? This is merely your speculation once again.

    You act as if faith is a work of the Law. Go back and read Romans 3 and it is clear that Paul set Faith up against the works of the law not as just another work man must perform. Paul says those who pursue God by works will not find Him him but those who pursue him by faith will. These are not one in the same.


    What means has God chosen to "open their spiritual eyes"? The Holy Spirit, right?

    We both agree here.

    What action has the Holy Spirit taken to "open peoples eyes?"

    Let's see. He came at Pentacost, comforted, empowered and indwelled the hearts of believers. More than than he inspired the words of chosen vessels, called the apostles, to bring us the powerful gospel message that His indwelled followers are commanded to take to all the people.

    Is that enough? Not according to Calvinists. The Holy Spirit doesn't only call people through those means, in fact the means of the gospel really doesn't accomplish anything unless there is a second, inward, secret, irresistable calling that only comes to God's special people. WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE! (I'm not yelling in anger, but frustration. I just don't see this being taught in our Word.)

    If they won't believe the prophets they wouldn't believe any one else.

    Your point? This only goes to prove the hardenness of the human heart that has continually rebelled against God. Calvinism teaches we are born Totally Depraved in that we are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the message of Christ. The biblical doctrine of hardening teaches that man becomes hardened only after knowing the truth and continually rejecting it. There is a big difference.
     
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    It is a matter of perspective. It does not take foreknowledge to bring on hardening. Hardening can occur whether or not one has foreknowledge. Look at the Pharoah's reaction to Moses. The Pharoah did not know the God of the Israelites, afterall they were his slaves. God had not revealed his power to the Pharoah. The Pharoah had only the warnings provided him by Moses. God hardened the Pharoah's heart for one purpose, and that is to Glorify His name throughout the whole world.

    One could look at God as being unjust toward the Egyptians. One could look at God as being unjust toward the children of Israel for leaving them in captivity all that time. The result of all that is that He got my attention, and I have no problem giving Him all the glory.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Skandelon, you said:
    You're right, this could go on endlessly, because you're talking about "dead" and I'm talking about the fact that you are confusing "dead in" and "dead to". Paul, in telling the Ephesians that they were "dead in" trespasses and sins was talking about the Ephesians' state before Christ, and to the Romans when he said "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? " Paul was citing their present condition after Christ.
    You said:
    From the same scripture that says we need to compare spiritual with spiritual you find the following words describing the ability of natural man dead in sins and trespasses to discern the "powerful revealing truth of the gospel":

    So, no, I do not make assumptions about anything. I do what the Bible teaches when studying scripture. Comparing spiritual with spiritual, precept after precept, a line here, a line there.

    And then you said:

    Okay, I went back to Romans 3, and this is what I found out. That this is the chapter of Romans where Paul points out the universality of sin, that neither Jew nor Gentile is exempt from it and are both therefore under the wrath of God, that there is none that seeketh God, no, not one and that man's unbelief does not in anyway void the faith of God (v.3) and that the righteousness of God apart from the law is that righteousness which is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

    Totally in line with what Paul told the Galatians, too, that justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ, not our faith. And that is what I have been saying, the work that God honored is the work of His only begotten Son, and that includes His faith and trust in His Father so that " .. being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" and so He "set His face" to go to Jerusalem.

    That faith is part of Christ's works, His fulfillment of the Law, and His works are what saved us, because He alone satisfied all the requirements of the Law, which includes faith.

    Any faith man claims to be his own and not Christ's which serves as his basis for his salvation is works.

    You said:

    Wrong. The Holy Spirit is not a "means". He is God Himself. Therefore God Himself opens the dead man's eyes and gives it sight. Jesus opened men's eyes. Jesus called out to Lazarus in the tomb. Jesus raised up Tabitha from the dead.

    Here are "means". The preaching of God's Word, the passing of tracts, the sending out of missionaries. Again, Primitive Baptists reject "means" in the regeneration of sinners.


    You said:

    The problem is that you keep lumping unbelievers with believers, unregenerates with regenerates. my friend. Consider our discussion about "dead in sin" and "dead to sin". Here again, you are describing the work of the Holy Spirit in and among believers. These are men and women whose spiritual eyes have already been opened, who have all been spritually quickened from their once spiritually dead state.

    Skandelon, you also said:

    Okay, but first, again, let me reiterate, those "means" you are talking about are the Holy Spirit's work in and among regenerated children of God. Not among the unrepentant. Now, as for the irresistible call to His people:

    Finally, you said:
    Let me use one of the BB posters' description of Total Depravity.
    Are you going to say that man is not a totally depraved being ? Have we retained the image and likeness of God, or do we bear the likeness of Adam. If we retained the image and likeness of God, then we are in fact holy, obedient, Godly, pure, undefiled, and have thoughts that are constantly tuned to God. Then, what about the crimes, death, sicknesses, disease, drought, natural disasters, and all the imperfections around us ?
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Sorry, Skandelon. Forgot the Scripture reference for this one.

    I Corinthians 2:11-14. [​IMG]
     
  17. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    No one has posted anything that explains clearly that there is injustice in God. What I have seen posted is man's perception of God's justice, the victim's view if you will, and we all know that our own view of justice is from our own perspective only. We cannot assume God's view and thus view Justice from that view.
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    The "warnings" you speak of is the "foreknowledge" that Pharoah was given. Pharoah knew that Moses' God wanted him to let the people go but he refused. He chose to be rebellious against God. Later the scripture says God hardens Pharoahs heart in that he sealed him in that disobeidence in order to show his glory, as you pointed out.

    The whole idea and concept of hardening implies the idea that there must be something one is becoming hardened to. A criminal doesn't start out as an hardened criminal. He starts out with minor offenses and as his conscience is seered and he become acustom to his crimes he becomes hardened. Hardening is a process. Not the natural nature of a man when they are born as Calvinists teach.
     
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Exactly my point. Paul speaks of their condition before and after. Both times using the word "dead" to describe that condition. Before Christ you assume dead, because it happens to be followed by little word "in", must mean total inability. And after Christ the word "dead" , because it is followed by the little word "to", must mean ???? something else. You only have an opinion to provide as any kind of support for this interpretation and it is the crux of the entire doctrine of Total Depravity. Talk about a week foundation on which to build an entire doctrine.
    You said:
    From the same scripture that says we need to compare spiritual with spiritual you find the following words describing the ability of natural man dead in sins and trespasses to discern the "powerful revealing truth of the gospel":

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    This doesn't answer the question because this passage is not speaking about a lost man's inablity to understand the gospel message. Read the entire context and you will see that Paul is speaking about the "deep things of God." Also, read on into the next chapter and notice that even his Corinthian audience hadn't yet understood these "spiritual matters" to which Paul is referring, yet if you notice he considers them to be "brethern." How can they not understand these "spiritual matters" if they are believers if it is as you say "the gospel" that they are unable to understand?

    Even if you don't accept this arguement and I were to concede that these verse is saying what you want it to say. Who is the one who brings the gospel message to us? The Holy Spirit. Therefore to hear the gospel is to hear the decerning words of the Spirit. This is why Paul could have said earlier in this chapter that he preached Christ and him crucified, which is the basic gospel, message. Why? Because it would be a demonstration of the Spirit's power to use only the Spirits words and not his own. The word carries power, Calvinists seem to forget that thinking that the Spirit must add something to the word. That's not biblically supported. The Spirits means are the words not some secret calling know one ever even mentions.


    Christ had faith? I know Christ is the author of our faith. But did Christ require faith to believe in himself? I don't think that is biblically based. I could be wrong. If so please show me. It just doesn't make much sense.

    If it is Christ's faith by which we are saved, why is it that Christ rebukes men for not having faith? Shouldn't he just rebuke himself, or better yet give them some? Please explain.

    Also, I know where scripture teaches that Christ fulfilled the works of the law on our behalf, but could you point to the part that speaks of his believing on our behalf for us? This is out there!

    Yes! And the Holy Spirit opens the losts eyes through what means????

    THE GOSPEL! He indwells the hearts of believers as a comfortor, encourager and guide and compels us to preach the gospel. The powerful message of God's word convicts people of sin and opens the eyes.

    Then PB are not on the side of the apostle Paul who clearly wrote:

    What? The gospel is for regenerated children of God only? This is so far out there I don't want to waist my time addressing anymore. I've known a lot of Calvinistic believers in my day and even a few PBs and I've not heard any take things as far off as you do. You may want to consult with some of your teachers..
     
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Skandelon:


    You say this is my doctrine ? Okay, here is Gill's commentary. Gill is Electionist.

    Now, here is Wesley's, who is Arminian:

    Dead to sin. By Gill, the Calvinist:

    Dead to sin, by Wesley, the Arminian:
    You can look these up at Crosswalk.com if you care to.


    Next item. About the letter to the Corinthians.
    We were talking about the natural man, the man dead in sin and trespasses being unable to understand "things of the Spirit". I gave that Scripture to show to you waht the Holy Spirit says about your argument that men so alive to sin welcome and understand the gospel message. They do not.

    Are these Corinthians still dead in sin and trespasses and therefore unsaved ? No, they are not. Are they still spiritual babies ? Yes, they are. Consider their treatment of the Lord's supper in 1 Corinthians, consider the man living in sexual abomination. Did Paul consider them unbelievers ? No, he did not. Was Paul telling them about how unbelievers are ? Yes, he was. So, stop twisting this discussion just to picture me heretical or stupid, and stick to the topic. We are talking about unregenerates and not regenerates.

    You said:
    Okay. But again I am reminded of Father Abraham's words to the rich man. You know, in the Bible, Matthew says something about the graves being opened and the saints roaming in the city, which means the Jews saw them, but did Jerusalem convert ? I can post as many scriptures here, but if you choose to remain blind to it, those scriptures will mean nothing. And I say "choose" not to mean that man indeed has free will, but, because I consider you one of God's own, yet one who 'chooses' to ignore what his God clearly wrote down, just like Paul refused to heed the Holy Spirit's warning through Agabus, the prophet.
    You said:

    In Himself, no. In His Father, yes. Biblical base ? Read Philippians and Hebrews.

    You said:

    Okay. here I will agree with you, this statement does not say that the Gospel is the means of regeneration (which we PB's do not believe). What you said is in line with the gospel bringing life and immortality to light. The elect are lost until God regenerates them in order for the Gospel to convict them and instruct them. But the Gospel will only have that effect on God's people, not all people.

    You said:

    Your problem is that you consider the Gospel a means of regeneration. I say, and my brethren will agree with me, it is not a means of regeneration. God regenerates His people without any need of means. The Gospel is the whole counsel of God to His people and not to the whole human race, from the good news of their finished salvation, to their instruction in doctrine, to reproof, to the practice of rightousness and holy living as pilgrims on this earth.

    You know, I never had any formal study on the Doctrines of Grace. I graduated from a Philippine Bible Baptist seminary run by a Bible Baptist church which was thoroughly Arminian and whose President and Dean and instructors practically frothed in the mouth at the mention of Calvinism, John Piper, John Mc'Arthur, James M. Boice, and the modern day Calvinists and Reformed Theologians, and that made me wonder.
    Now. I know that Spurgeon and John Bunyan and John Newton were Calvinistic, and the same seminary president and seminary dean and seminary instructors loved to quote from these men and use these men's outlines in most of their sermons, and that made me wonder some more, but I kept quiet because I was a student in their seminary.

    A year into seminary I was sent out by the church as preacher and started a small church in one of the depressed areas. Of course, the doctrines I taught and my preaching was Arminian and I had the usual altar calls. For a year. After that I stopped altar calls, and simply told visitors to study their Bibles if they had one. Still, without altar calls, that mission became an organized church with 65 members who called me to Pastor them, I baptized people into the church at the rate of three a month, which was good for the Philippines considering the Philippines was a 'devoutly' Roman Catholic country. And that made me wonder some more.
    When I got to the States, God, in His providence, directed me to a Calvinistic Baptist church whose pastor patiently expounded the Doctrines of Grace to me. And with more providence, God led me to the Primitive Baptists who do not have organized Bible studies.
    Therefore, I have no teachers to run to, except God.
    What I do, is search the Scriptures to see if what they (Calvin, Gill, etc., Hassel, Pyles, etc) say is true, comparing scripture with scripture, a line here, a line there, a precept here, a precept there, and I found that the PB's were right in most cases.
     
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