Is Hell, Eternal Torture?

Nope, Audra, you cannot interpret word for word. You MUST take scripture in "context". You are taking things out of context.

If we are going to be consumed. Who cares, why bother, once your out like a light, then you wouldn't know the difference anyway.

How do you explain all the verses of "eternal punishment"?

When you refer to Rev 21:8 again you are taking a verse out of context. Essentially, added with the rest of the New Testament Gospel, anyone who has not accepted Jesus Christ has not been washed in his blood and therefore they will be guilty of the sins quoted in that verse. Nowhere does it say they will be "burnt up".

Also, you cannot take scripture relating to future prophecy in the Old Testament out of context. You are completely mixing up what is going to happen (or did happen at one time, after it was written).

You are believing a Jehovah's witness heresy and it will not stand up to Biblical scholarship.

 

Have any other people (besides the one or two posters here) seen Baptist churches that believed this way?

I know across the nation there are a lot of Baptist Churches that have gone off the deep end of doctrine (such as homosexual preachers), but I'm talking about long-lasting Baptist church groups that have and will continue to believe this stuff against all of the quoted scriptures posted on the first page. Is there a particular group of Baptists by name that we would recognize?

 

Are you a Baptist, Audra?

 

Audra, One last message before I go for you to ponder.

Above I explained how a loving God HAS to let man choose his reward or punishment. Man's soul was made to last forever. Therefore, if God loves man enough to give him freedom. He will NOT force a man (or woman) to live with him in all pureness, if they don't want to have anything to do with him on earth.

Everlasting Punishment is quoted all over the Bible. Your verses pulled out of context are no comparison for the blatant description of an eternal place of torment and punishment.

Then again, I ask, are you Baptist? and if so, does your church believe as you do? and if so, what type of Baptist are they?

 

To answer your question Phillip, I have never been to, or even heard of, any Baptist Church that adheres to this doctrine.
From Audra's posts it sounds like a J.W. wolf in Christian clothing. Notice how she floods you with a bunch of scripture, that really proves YOUR point of view, but puts her spin on them to make it seem as though they prove HER point of view? This is a classic J.W. ploy that they have been indoctrinated with. I know, it was my pleasure to work next to one for several months. I say pleasure, because I did have fun with him!
Audra, I can't say that you are a J.W., but you have fallen into the same error that started with their founder, Charles Taze Russell. Perhaps their organization is better suited for you.

 

The doctrine of annihilationism teaches that man was created immortal. But those who continue in sin and reject Christ are by a positive act of God deprived of the gift of immortality and are ultimately destroyed.
Another view, called "conditional immortality," argues that immortality is not a natural endowment of man, but is rather a gift of God in Christ only to those who believe. The person that does not accept Christ is ultimately annihilated and loses all consciousness. Some of the advocates of these doctrines teach a limited duration of conscious suffering for the wicked after death, after which time they are annihilated.

There are many passages that refute annihilationism. For illustration purposes, we will select only one primary passage - Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

By no stretch of the imagination can the punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear on this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness.

Bible scholar John Gerstner tells us that "one can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it."

How do we know that the punishment referred to in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. One is either annihilated or one is not. The Scriptures, by contrast, teach that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matthew 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Hebrews 10:29; Revelation 20:11-15; 22:12).

The very fact that people will suffer varying degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts.

Moreover, one cannot deny that for one who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing - not a punishment (cf. Luke 23:30-31; Revelation 9:6). Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define "eternal punishment" as an extinction of consciousness.

We must emphasize that torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Bible scholar Alan Gomes correctly points out that "a punishment [such as torment] that is not felt is not a punishment. It is an odd use of language to speak of an insensate (i.e., unfeeling), inanimate object receiving punishment. To say, 'I punished my car for not starting by slowly plucking out its sparkplug wires, one by one,' would evoke laughter, not serious consideration." We repeat, then, that punishment entails consciousness!

A critical point to make in regard to Matthew 25:46 is that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihilationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective aionion in this verse literally means "everlasting, without end." As noted earlier, this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in 1 Timothy 1:7, Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as our eternal God.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Annihilationism.html

 

How can anyone state that hell is eternal when hell and death are finite enemies of Christ?

are they not defeated by the proof of the resurrection power of Christ?

isnt there scripture that denote the enevitable destruction,desolation and absorption of both death and hell by the power of Christ?

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

judgement comes to all men. first it is the bride. today while they are physically alive. yet the great white throne judgement is the judgement after life of the spirit. they are removed from Death and HELL and they stand before the GWT judgement.

HELL is EMPTY. DEATH is EMPTY. there cannot be any torture within them for there is no occupants! they stand before the GWT judgement.

but yet if one was to read further, they can easily conclude that the enemies of Christ. death and hell are placed in the Lake of fire.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

Is Paul lying here? is death actually destroyed in the lake of Fire? if hell is an enemy of Christ it to must be destroyed for death is the "last" enemy destroyed.. If Paul is speaking in stead of the Holy Spirit...

All torments within death and hell will come to a conclusion. all residents are taken out, judged and placed in the lake of fire. their spirits are in the lake. this is a spirit realm.

We read further that death as well as hell are placed in the lake of fire as the elements of the lake of fire and death and hell collide.

is it apparent that the forces within the lake of fire is against death and hell? are against the works and deeds of those spirits placed within them. read further. the bride is also in their as ministering spirits yet they are not hurt of the forces within the lake of fire.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


is the elements within the ministers also against death and hell yet not against those in the lake?.

yes..it is called truth. truth destroys death and hell. the truth that the powers of God is stronger than death and hell.

 

Phillip, first let me address your argument on God giving man a choice of punishment or reward. Here is the flaw in your argument. You are assuming that people who reject God all "believe" in God. Your argument here is saying that a person who doesn't believe in God would not want to live with God. That is not true. All people who don't believe in God would love to go on the next life and live with God or whomever. They just don't believe it is possible so they don't waste there time trying to create some early bond with a God entity or religion.

From our Christian perpective, the problem is that person (athiest) can't believe in God due to their limited understanding or lack of understanding of God. But is it right for God to send a person who can't believe in the God concept to hell and punishment for ever. It it is true then God may very well have to send children and mentally retarded people to hell and punishment also. Both types of people are not able to understand that God exists. An argument that the athiest can understand and openly rejects the belief in God will not stand up either since it comes back to a mental lack which "prevents" belief. Which is the same argument for the young child or mental person.

So if there is a lack of capacity to believe in God, and further that person then sins, just as a mentally retarded person may (one just got the death sentence here in Texas) how can God hold that person responsible for sin, when they were not able to believe that what they were doing would send them to eternal punishment?

So while it is agreed, that our local state laws should punish people, sinners that don't believe in God, could not be sent into an eternal punishment. They well could be partakers of the first and second deaths, but no eternal punishment. God is just, therefore, it would be impossible for God to punish billions of people who never heard of him, or not able to believe in him to due to a lack of understanding.

Lastly, just because no Baptist Church I or you have ever heard of doesn't support a certain belief, doesn't mean the individual can't believe in it. I don't believe in eternal punishment for mankind, and have always been church going Baptist. I don't follow several things the rest of my church believes. It is one of the attributes an individual Baptist has. So unless you know Audra is a JW, don't sidetrack the argument with personal attacks,... personal attacks are not what real Baptist do.

 

Read the scripture again. It doesn't say "to heaven", it says to "eternal Life", this implies that anything other than eteral life is death. Over and over the verses (just like John 3:16) states that a saved person will be granted "eternal life" or "everlasting life". So it is obvious that not to be save would lead to death, or "perish" as in many passages.

 

Freeatlast's post, as well as the referenced websight totally destroys the unbiblical idea of annihilationism.
As for anyone being a J.W., true, no one can know this BUT, this doctrine is the very error that led Charles Taze Russell down the path he went. I myself struggle with the idea of blood transfusions, that does not make me a J.W.

 

Right now I am throwing my hands up in disgust. This thread is exactly why I left the board the first time. Scripture twisting, emotional arguments, and a lack of respect for orthodox Christianity and the doctrines that have been affirmed generation after generation. I am sickened by the lack of attention given to solid exegetical argumentation and Biblical theology. It is truly a sad day when people believe that it is more important to affirm the (truly unBaptistic) view of individual Scripture interpretation than it is to affirm the basic, historic, and orthodox doctrine of Hell. So once again I am through with the board. I will go back to preparing myself even harder to raise up a generation who does not twist Scripture and who understands the importance of historic Christianity. Thanks to those who have tried to affirm the Biblical view of Hell on this board. To those who do not I hope you will see your error, repent of it, and return to the faith of your forefathers.

D.R.

 

Do you believe what the Bible says?

"And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said. Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for i am tormented in these flame.
But Abraham said, Son remember that thou in thy lifetime recievest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented
And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said,I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For i have five brethren; that he may testify unto them lest they also come into this torment .Luke 16:23-28


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

 

What you mentioned I saw in seminary by students there. I worked for the semianry and saw others things of disgust. I believe that many were there to get their ticket to a job. You will be in for a huge surprise when you pastor. It is worse than ever.

What would you think if I told you that I pastored an SBC church that was in the 20+ year practice of inviting the Mormon Bishop to come and preach at Christian events all in the name of fairness? In that church were three people involved as a volunteer at the state level. When I came I put a stop to that immediately. The church grew unlike they had ever seen. After 20 months the deacons had enough of me and asked me to leave. The local association would do nothing to help me. They knew about it for over 20 years too. Nobody said anything to me before I came. Guess who is their present pastor? A man who was involved at the state level. I wrote to one of the former SBC presidents about this ungodly practice and received a response from him. He mentioned that about 2/3 of the SBC churches were good and the rest poor. He told me to move on. That church should have been disciplined a long time ago. When I talked with the local association they told me that they could do nothing all in the name of autonomous.

How’s that for paganism in a supposedly conservative convention?

It is among those who call themselves believers in the business world too. There are some so- called Christians that I will not do work for because they cheat their customers.

But you are not alone in this matter. It is all over. The gospels talk about it. Paul mentions it. It has always been there and will continue to exist as long as people do not obey God.

Just look at Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

 

I don’t know of one person or church that reads the Bible and especially the gospels would ever propagate such nonsense and unbiblical, unlogical, nonsense. You need to read your Bible and study a little anthropology. Every society has an idea of sin. Every society has a concept of right and wrong and atonement for sin. That is universal among all people in every society.

Prov. 3:5-8, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and turn away from evil. 8 It will be healing to your body And refreshment to your bones.

Jeremiah 29:13, “You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart”

 

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God didn't create hell for man. it was created for the devil and his angels. man chose to go there of his own will.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

You are confusing tribulation on Earth with hell, no comparison.

What part of "eternal punishment" do you not understand?

 

You are REALLY taking verses out of context. The message here is that Jesus Christ defeated the enemy of "Death".

When "second death" is mentioned in the Bible there is too much scripture relating to eternal punishment to not believe that "being without God for eternity would be, "in effect" a death.

Yes, the enemy of death is defeated. We will be ressurected. That is the method of defeat. When God made man in HIS image, he made his soul to live forever. His body died as a result of sin, his soul continues to exist for eternity. Again, what part of "eternal punishment" do you not understand?

Your "burnt up" theory is a cop-out. It is Jehovah's Witness theory. Are you really Baptist and what group of Baptist? To my knowledge, no historical Baptist group denies eternal punishment. If you are burnt up there is no punishment.

 

The fire in hell doesn't burn up. There is a literal hell because my Bible says so. the scripture is not a relative truth it is an absolute because the Absolute Truth wrote it.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar9:45 And if they foot off thee cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47And if thy eye offend thee pluck it out:it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It may not be the exact context with which it is speaking but one still can observe the attributes of hell here and the question was,"is hell a place of eternal torment?"

i think it is very clear to see from the scriptures that i have cited that it certainly is a place of eternal torment just as our Lord says that it is.

[ April 04, 2004, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: At His Feet ]

 

At His Feet. You are exactly right. The belief in a non-eternal "burnt (sic) up" hell is a gnostic belief. It is also heading for new-age beliefs. The next thing we will see if reincarnation, just wait.

These people are using a cop-out, because they cannot face the fact that eternal punishment is real. If this were the case, what difference would it make it we were gone forever with no consciousness..... Why bother to send out missionaries.

Its part of the liberalism that the SBC kicked out of its colleges when the moderate and conservatives gained power.

 

David Koresh was an excellent example of someone who used a KJV and twisted it to his beliefs. To deny the specificity of "eternal punishment" and "their worm dieth not" is rediculous.

This is a great example of denial and unbelief in the literalness of God's Word.

Why in the world would Jesus use an example of Lazarus conscious in punishment if it was not real? A parable of being conscious in punishment would be worthless if it were not true. Jesus didn't waste his Words on irrelevant parables.