Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

James Newman:Did they all understand that of gehenna? Can you show some historical documentation of what the Jews understood gehenna to be?

James, I didn't say they UNDERSTOOD Jesus' illustration. For all WE know, those jews coulda believed they went to that garbage dump if they died in sin. Jesus used MANY illustrations that most people didn't understand. Some, He explained, some He didn't. For example, Nicodemus didn't know what Jesus meant by "born again" until Jesus told him. What I'm saying is that JESUS used the name gehenna when He was telling the people about the LOF. Most likely, some understood while others didn't.

 

He was talking to everyone there and telling them that if they didn't "cut off their hand, or foot or pluck out their eye, etc." they would burn in the Lake of Fire? Is that how we get saved?

Either Jesus was teaching non-believers to have good fruit and eliminate bad fruit (WORKS) to be saved, or he was teaching believers (He taught them . . .his disciples) to be obedient servants or else be chastened. There is not another choice. (Short of loss of eternal salvation?!)

And the warning is Hell for whomever it is addressed to. If Gehenna is the LOF, then it is a salvation issue.

Lacy

 

Look at it honestly. I only see three possibilities. (Feel free to show me a 4th)

1) Jesus is speaking to unbelievers (whether disciples or not) telling them how to get saved. (WORKS ALERT!) [sarcasm](Someone print up the tracts please before we all cut off our hands so we can start soulwinning all over again with our "Biblical" gospel message.)[/sarcasm]

2) Jesus was speaking to saved disciples warning them that (If this verse speaks of the LOF) they could lose salvation. (WORKS ALERT!!!)

3) Jesus was speaking to saved disciples warning them that (If this speaks of Hell, like my Bible says), they are in danger of temporary banishment in the underworld and exclusion from the 1000 year kingdom. (No works for salvation here. Salvation is already established and irrevocable, yet we are still subject to chastening.)

Now read the verses and decide.

Lacy

 

Actually, Lacy, let's go to the first verses of Matt.5... 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, sayingThe Beatitudes)

Now, did "them" include only His disciples? Let's go to the end of the "Sermon on the Mount" in Matt.7...28And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Clearly, He was speaking to the croed, and not just His disciples. many understood and heeded His messages, while others did not. We don't know how many understood His gehenna illustration and how many didn't. But nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that the place Jesus symbolized by the name gehenna is anything but the LOF. Remember, Jesus used the words gehenna and hades separately. As for John and revelation, John wrote what he saw, describing it as best he could with his 1st century understanding. Some things, jesus caused him to understand; otherwise he wouldn't know it was death and hades cast into the LOF. But he had no problem recognizing "A" lake of fire when he saw it. Later, he called it, "THE" LOF.

Once someone is mentioned as going into gehenna, there's no further mention of whoever it was. This is also true of the LOF. But hades gave up the dead within it.

Gehenna is the LOF;the LOF is gehenna.

 

James Newman:He taught 'them' is the disciples.

Yes, the disciples were present, as Scripture says. But they were not part of the crowd.


I have never heard of having to go 2 chapters further into a book to find the antecedent of a pronoun.

In that case, you haven't read your KJV very well. Please read from Matthew 5 through Matthew 7 and see if it's not all the same body of words spoken by JESUS from the mount. Therefore your above statements are only opinion based upon guesswork.


The people probably were astonished, but the teaching was to the disciples.

That's only PART of that the Scriptures say. The crowd is also included. Any other interpretation of those Scriptures is downright silly.


These teachings are to you and me as well.

I agree...and they say 'gehenna' to US as well as His actual audience.


You didn't answer Lacy, do we lose our salvation if we do not heed these warnings?

With all due respect to Lacy and you, this is NOT the subject of what YOU first asked, and what we've been discussing. Now, I say gehenna and the LOF are one & the same and you say they aren't. I have made some case for my belief with fact from SCRIPTURE, while you have provided only opinion and guesswork.


Or is this how we get saved? I don't want to go to the lake of fire...

Shoot, not even the devil wants to go there...but he knows it's gonna be his final abode some day...and since misery loves company, he wants to take as many people with him to gehenna as he can.

 

Clearly the "them" are the disciples. Otherwise we have no way to understand the english language.

Since a disciple is one who is saved and following Jesus, anyone that is saved and following the Saviour's teaching is thus a disciple.

The Lord has told me, through his word, that if I am to gain an entrance into the 1000 year kingdom (notice this is not eternity) then I must be meek, pray for those that dispitefully use me, remove my mote before pulling out your beam, etc. However to miss the lake of fire I must be saved (Rev 20:15, John 3:36). I know this to be the case because the beast, the false prophet and the devil all end up there as well as every unbeliever.

What did the Lord warn me (a disciple) about? Hell. Matthew 10 the Lord is giving a soul winners conference. He told me, among other things, to not be afraid of man; all man can do is kill my body. I should fear the Lord that cast both soul and body in hell. You know, that is what John was talking about over in 1John 4:18. If you have that perfect love you will not be afraid to tell an ol' rotten stinkin' sinner that judgment is coming! No, no you will have no problem at all letting an ol' drunkard know that his ballin' and squallin' days are coming! Neither will you have any fear to tell the pios, tithe payers of your church that are saved by grace that there is hell to pay for not living holy.

My friends, our Lord warned us of hell, not the lake of fire. There is hell to pay if you miss the Kingdom of God.

-DeaconLew

 

Deacon, one can be a disciple and not be saved. There are many who follow the teachings of Christ who do not know him, and I believe the Bible makes this quite clear when he talks them coming to him saying "Lord, Lord" and then telling them all the things they have done in his name. He's going to tell them he never knew them.

AVL1984

 

It is not possible accourding to the scripture to be a disciple and not be saved. The verses that you are referencing are to believers (folks that are saved). Benny Hin may be saved, but his "healing people" will not cover any unrighteousness. Neither will it cover yours or mine! We have to be faithful to the end. Or there is a price that will be paid at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

-DeaconLew

 

I disagree, Deacon. There are many people today who follow Christs teachings but are no more saved than a telephone book.

AVL1984

 

Then they are not scripturally or practically following his teachings. The very first thing he said to do was get saved. If they are not saved they are not following him. -DeaconLew

 

Not necessarily, deacon. All they have to do to be a disciple is be a follower of his teachings. Many who follow him without being saved are more "Christian" in action than many Christians, yet their discipleship will not save them from hell.

AVL1984

 

Hmmm. Reread what I posted. The first thing Jesus said to follow him in was salvation (John 3). Not saved, not a disciple.

 

We are already on page seven and this thread has deviated from the OP. Let's return to the topic or we will need to shut this one down.

 

C4K

Could you please suffer further discussion on who was addressed in Mark 9. (Christians or everyone.) This is important to the subject of whether the danger is Hell or the LOF. The way I see it, If the danger is Hell, then Millenial Exclusionists are correct. If the Danger is the LOF, then those who teach conditional security are correct.

To properly discus Mark 9 we have to address the issue of salvation and works. It is a multi-faceted subjuct with far-reaching implications.

Respectfully, Lacy

 

If not committing adultery proves I am saved then I am not. (I am no longer an adulterer as of 9 years ago). If not getting drunk proves I am saved then I am not (same as above). If 1Cor6 is right no one is saved... theft (what about your credit card debt??). Either we were warned of punishment after salvation for unholiness or salvation is by works.

-DeaconLew

 

James Newman:Did they all understand that of gehenna? Can you show some historical documentation of what the Jews understood gehenna to be?

James, not even Jesus' disciples understood ALL His illustrations at the time. The only way WE understand them is through HINDSIGHT.

But we need to stay with what Jesus SAID, and not how His audience understood it. He said, "Gehenna". What gives anyone the idea that gehenna is anything but the LOF? God doesn't have a shuttling system for the wicked dead. They go to hades, face judgment, then are cast into the LOF...gehenna. This is Scriptural.