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Is it better to give or receive?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by npetreley, Jul 4, 2007.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Any idea why the NIV translators chose not to harmonize these two? I didn't check all translations but I seem to recall at least one or more other translations says "received from" in Psalms. Even the KJV is awkward, at best, but sort of means the same thing.

    KJV

    Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

    NIV

    8 This is why it says:
    "When he ascended on high,
    he led captives in his train
    and gave gifts to men."

    Psalsm 68:18 When you ascended on high,
    you led captives in your train;
    you received gifts from men
     
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Are you sure there is a harmonization here? I see a difference in "gave gifts to men" and "received gifts from men."

    In the LXX it is Psalm 67:19, the phrase under consideration is ελαβες δοματα εν ανθρωπω: "He received gifts among man." Even the KJV follows the NIV at this point.
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Maybe you're right. But shouldn't they harmonize? It sure seems like the Eph verse is a quote of Psalms in every other respect. I think I even read in a Bible's notes once that our version of the Psalm may be in error, and it should match Ephesians.
     
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    This is a footnote from the NET Bible: "A quotation which is perhaps ultimately derived from Ps 68:18. However, the wording here differs from that of Ps 68 in both the Hebrew text and the LXX in a few places, the most significant of which is reading “gave gifts to” in place of “received gifts from” as in HT and LXX. It has sometimes been suggested that the author of Ephesians modified the text he was citing in order to better support what he wanted to say here. Such modifications are sometimes found in rabbinic exegesis from this and later periods, but it is also possible that the author was simply citing a variant of Ps 68 known to him but which has not survived outside its quotation here (W. H. Harris, The Descent of Christ [AGJU 32], 104). Another possibility is that the words here, which strongly resemble Ps 68:19 HT and LXX (68:18 ET), are actually part of an early Christian hymn quoted by the author."

    You might find this helpful.
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Yes, that's helpful. It sounds very much like the way I remember the note I'd read elsewhere. I'd forgotten how that was worded, so your note was very helpful. Thanks!
     
  6. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (Psalms 68:18, KJV)​
    Several other versions avoid direct conflict by rendering the phrase "among men" (including the NKJV, ESV, NASB, RSV). The NLT has "from people"; the NIV has a note that "from men" could also be "for men". Darby translates it as "in Man".
     
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    On second thought, I like this explanation better. Now that I think of it, what are the chances that there would be two such verses identical in every way except for the fact that one says FOR men, and the other says FROM men?
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Active Member

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    I reckon some Greek-writing scribe who copied Ephesians coulda made a slight goof also.
     
  9. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    How could the KJB ever follow the NIV?:laugh:
     
  10. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I seriously doubt that the receiving for men would also be "confused" as the LORD as well received gifts for the rebellious.

    I believe some one is forgetting the prophetic value of the Psalm and the emphasis of Ephesians being after the Messiah had come as Immanuel bearing the gift of grace unto salvation.

    Also, the LORD did receive some of the spoils taken from the conquored kings as offerings. These well might have been used to support some of the poor of any tribe considered to have within them some of the "rebellious".

    Personally I believe it is the prophetic value that most overlook and only think there is some discrepency.

    Paul, who worte Ephesians would not have made a mistake in this. The "idea" of scribal error is one of the silliest arguements ever offered. Scribal corruption? Yes. Often.
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Noteworthy thought, indeed.:thumbs:
     
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