"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Chet,

Amen! Preach it brother! (Without the dancing please! Just thought the tap dance thing was funny! *hehe* )

You know I was discussing this topic wiht my husband today at lunch and he was telling me about a Roman Emporer who persecuted Christians. His technique for finding out who was Christian or not was simple. He said "ask them"! If they tell you they are Christian, then kill them! If they are say that they are not Christians then spare thier lives. He figured if they were going to lie about it then they weren't living up to their faith and were no threat anyway. I just found that rather interesting and relevant...makes ya think. Like my husband said, what about in Matthew where Jesus said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(I can go back to using KJV if you like, it says the same thing.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we just lie our way out of it, where does the blessing come in?

Larry,

Any chance you could post a link to the page or private message me one. I would like to see what you have going! It would help me in brainstorming some too I think.

~Lorelei

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

Larry,

Some search engines spider out and grab the information from Meta tags within the HTML code. I place this between the heading after the title. I can show you how to do that if you don't already have one. It will allow you to add certain keywords for searching yet not affect the title or content of the page.

I would say your buddy is right on track then. The word porn gets his site looked at, but he is honest as to what the content is about.

I am on your side Larry, we all are. Nothing wrong with discussing options! I don't believe anyone here is upset with you at all!

I will do what I can to help ya! And don't let the page stay down too long, it is a message that needs to be heard. You have me thinking I should post my own page. I already wrote a little summary on lust here once, maybe I too can try to make a difference via the world wide web. Keep up the good work Larry! Your ideas are inspiring and your willingness to seek advice is admirable!

~Lorelei

 

I know a place where we can set you up with permanent web space. Send me an e-mail or private message if you're interested.

But I agree with you: Take advantage of all the free sites you can, too. I do the same when I advertise the Constitution Party. I create a single page that contains a link to their web site.

 

Lorelei, you wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ok Jefferson, let's use your logic here. Show me specifically where in each of the following verses it says that some lies are acceptable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are supposed to read the Bible as a whole and interpret it as such. We are not supposed to lift single verses out of context (while conveniently ignoring other verses) and develop our doctrines that way.
I agree with the verses you quoted. I agree that we should not lie in order to hurt someone or to cover up our own sin but when you also read the other verses that show God blessing people after they had lied to save lives, what other conclusion can you draw? God expects us to have common sense.

Here's an analogy: A disobedient child keeps telling his parents "NO!" The parents then say, "'NO' means 'I want a spanking now." Then after only 1/2 hour goes by, while eating dinner, the parents ask the child, "Do you want some more mashed potatoes?" The child says "No."

The child is wiser than many people on this forum. He understands context.

For example, you quoted:

Psalm 5:6
You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors. NIV

If this verse applies to every lie in every circumstance, then why was Rahab not destroyed?

And . . .

Proberbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free. NIV

Again, if your view that this verse applies to every person in every situation with no exceptions to the rule, then why did Rahab go unpunished?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am a witness to where the Jews are hidden, will I be an honest witness or a false one?

Truth=honest
False=lies

Hmmm a truthful witness does not deceive, so if I deceive then I am a false witness, but a false witness will be punished (by God not man) and perish. Now how can I lie and still not be punished by God according to this? No ifs, ors, excepts here either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I would consider you to be a "blabbermouth for Jesus" and I would lie and deceive you also in order to save the lives of the people I was hidding.

Lying to biblically naive Christians who became State informants in Germany was as ethical as lying to the State officials who were being served by those collaborating Christians who, in effect, became their agents.

We live in the real world Lorelei, not in a Pollyanna world.

 

Chet:

Regarding the lie of David's wife, you wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You must understand how the Bible is written in the narrative. The author does not pause and exclaim (now this is a sin you all, just so you know). We know that from reading the Bible as a whole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that we are supposed to read the Bible as a whole and interpret it as such. That's how I arrived at my view on this. I didn't just lift single verses out of context (while conveniently ignoring other verses) in coming to this conclusion. But it appears to me that is exactly what you did.

The following is a repeat of what I just wrote to Lorelei. I'm repeating it because it specifically addresses your point of reading the whole Bible:

I agree that we should not lie in order to hurt someone or to cover up our own sin but when you also read the other verses that show God blessing people after they had lied to save lives, what other conclusion can you draw? God expects us to have common sense.

Here's an analogy: A disobedient child keeps telling his parents "NO!" The parents then say, "'NO' means 'I want a spanking now." Then after only 1/2 hour goes by, while eating dinner, the parents ask the child, "Do you want some more mashed potatoes?" The child says "No."

The child is wiser than many people on this forum. He understands context.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You asked how Joshua did not lie. He did not lie. He simply let his army be driven back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When he told his army to run away, they were in effect telling the enemy, "We think you're stronger than us!" That's a blatant lie.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But you are missing the point, if he did lie this does not prove it is all right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one verse doesn't prove it but the fact that 100 percent of the verses where people lied to protect the lives of the just never mention a single condemning word against them does prove it by the very "Whole Bible" exegesis you claim to advocate.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You claim that by not lying we are tempting God, this is dumb. We are lacking faith by lying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To believe that we can tell the truth in a situation comparable to Rahab's, and that God will miraculously deliver us and the men whose lives are at stake, is not only foolish but also demonic theology. To hold that God must deliver us in such circumstances is to be guilty of the satanic temptation of testing God. Satan's second temptation to Jesus Christ was to cast himself down from a pinnacle of the temple and summon God to rescue Him. Jesus said to Satan, "It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matt. 4:7). Jesus Christ made it clear that no man could put God on trial, or impose a requirement on Him. No man can heedlessly expose people to death on the pretext that his duty is to tell the truth irrespective of the circumstances, expecting God to deliver the people who he himself refuses to deliver. It is Satan who believes that man has a duty to tempt God: "Yea, hath God said?" (Gen. 3:1).

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:
We live in the real world Lorelei, not in a Pollyanna world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed it is a real world, but Greater is He that is in me then he that is in the World!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is you are worrying about "me" and what "I" will do and not trusting God!

The storm comes and you say "LIE" we must LIE our way out of it. Jesus said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mark 4:40
And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To believe that we can tell the truth in a situation comparable to Rahab's, and that God will miraculously deliever us and the men whose lives are at stake, is not only foolish but also demonic theology. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Then why didn't the three Hebrew's lie? Shadrack, meshack, and abednego...

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To believe that we can tell the truth in a situation comparable to Rahab's, and that God will miraculously deliever us and the men whose lives are at stake, is not only foolish but also demonic theology.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although Joey's post is much better than what I'm about to say, I have to say this anyway:

Whottsamatta? You ain't got enough faith in God to believe that He can miraculously deliver us from evil?

THAT, Jefferson, is a demonic theology, not the belief that we MUST lie in order to save lives!....

To say that it is foolish to trust in God indicates quite clearly, Jeff, that you place more faith in yourself than you do in God.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:
Then why didn't the three Hebrew's lie? Shadrack, meshack, and abednego...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did I ever say that it was biblical to lie concerning whether or not the God of the bible is the true God?

Name me one verse where anyone did that and was commended by God.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
The problem is you are worrying about "me" and what "I" will do and not trusting God!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are admitting that you, a fellow believer, would rat me out to Nazi officers for trying to save Jewish lives and I'm the one with the spiritual problem?

 

All:

Critics of Bible heros who lied to save lives are following the pagan doctrine of sanctification, not the Christian one.

In paganism, the self-perfection of the individual is the religious ideal and the purpose of sanctification. The perfect individual is his own ultimate goal, not God's glory. The goal pursued, whether by the Sufis or by Buddha, has no reference to God, and very often, little reference to other men as well. The self is the ultimate concern of pagan holiness and of truth-telling. Pagan sanctification denies the reality of God and His law, and the reality of a world at war. This non-Christian moralism can therefore declare that it is holy to tell the truth to enemies, thereby leading to the killing of friends, neighbors, or loved ones, because the only issue is the selfish pursuit of the "purity" (so-called) of one's own soul.

Such a doctrine is clearly not Christian.

 

Oh, there's more where that came from Dr. Bob.

For example: Here's a question. Should all Christians quit the NFL? After all, about half of all plays run by an offense is fake (ie. lie) left then go right, or fake (ie. lie) a hand-off and then pass, etc. If it's not a sin for Christians to participate in this kind of lying, please explain why.

Also, a thought: Any Christian "blabbermouth for Jesus" that would tell the Nazis that another Christian was hiding Jews would be sinning against Proverbs 11:13, "A talebearer reveals secrets, But he who is of a faithful spirit conceals a matter."

 

Jefferson, Jefferson, Jefferson. If you actually knew any of the people here, you'd know that none of them "aspire to perfection." That sort of theology is espoused by the Nazarenes, not the Baptists.

Instead, Jefferson, look to 2 Samuel 22:3, 2 Sam 22:31, Psalm 5:11, Psalm 9:10, Psalm 68, Psalm 115:11, Psalm 118:8, Proverbs 3:5, Proverbs 30:5, Jeremiah 39:18, 2 Cor 1:9-10, 2 Cor 10:7, Hebrews 13:18.

Trusting in the Lord is not a doctrine of sanctification, Jefferson; the word "trust," especially in the Old Testament, is a word that literally means placing ourselves wholly and completely in His hands.

The question still stands: Do you not trust God enough to deliver you?

Rack, Shack, and Benny did; that's why they chose not to lie to save themselves, and faced the furnace.

Unless you're trying to say that it's okay to lie to save a life except when that lie deals with God.

Oh, and Proverbs 11:13? Pretty obvious by the word "talebearer" that we're talking about gossiping, and not the saving of someone's life, much less justification of lying.

 

And Dr. Bob--thanks for keeping it open.

How about posting your viewpoint? Or just plain thoughts?

 

Joey asked: Then why didn't the three Hebrew's lie?...

This can’t be missed, and is an excellent point. How many more times would we have
been able to read of God’s great protective power had us humans not resorted to the
lie to get ourselves out of trouble? Like Rahab thought she had to do. Shadrach
could have come up with some lie to save Meshach, and Abend-nego could have lied to
save Sadrach. And Daniel could have used some sort of deceit to save himself from the
den.

Jefferson said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the pagan doctrine of sanctification, not the Christian
one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It appears that Jefferson is stating that sanctification is not Biblical but pagan. Before I comment on how false that statement is, Jefferson, please explain yourself. If need be start a whole new thread please.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> thereby leading to the killing of friends, neighbors, or loved ones, because the only issue is the selfish pursuit of the "purity" (so-called) of one's own soul.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jefferson, I don’t think anyone here wants to see their friends killed because of our selfish endeavor! Ones purity has nothing to do with the question of lying being a sin always, or just when you want it not to be a sin.
Jefferson your question about the NFL. Obviously no-one has a problem with anyone
being in a football game. This game has rules that allow tricks. It is a game and only a game. Everyone knows your out to trick them within the guidlines of the game which is far different than lying about something as serious as the Gospel.

Don I agree with everything you said 100%. Great post.

Chet

 

Did Paul Lie about the Gospel or any event in order to save lives for all of eternity. I sure hope not!

Acts 20:27
For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.
NIV

While preaching to King Agrippa, Paul gave his testimony. Acts 26 records his testimony: Acts 26:12-18
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and
commission of the chief priests. About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light
from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. We all fell
to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ' Saul, Saul, why do you
persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' "'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was Paul lying about this? Let us see:

Acts 9:3-10
As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute
me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." The
men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
NIV

Paul didn’t seem to be lying about anything to deceive the King. Paul simply declared the facts. Plain facts. Perhaps if Paul would have lied then the King would have been persuaded instead of being almostpersuaded.

Did Paul lie about what the Gospel is:

1 Cor 15:1-5
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received
and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly
to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
NIV

I sure hope the Apostle Paul was not lying here. I hope this is not some trick. That is where I am basing all my faith.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Is it ever right to do wrong?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


NO!

 

Jefferson, try these on for size, too:

Colossians 3:9 Lie not to one another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Or, since I know how much emphasis you place on the words of David, the beloved of God:

Psalm 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them who speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man

Psalm 101:7 He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight

Or the Proverbs?

Prov 12:22 Lying lips are abominations to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight

Prov 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death

But, since ShadowGov's ultimate purpose is to restore Old Testament criminal law, let's look to the criminal laws:

Leviticus 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another

And let's look at one promised reward for telling the truth: Prov 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment

Or how about a commandment to be honest?

Zechariah 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgement of truth and peace in your gates

Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness