Is it sin to lie or kill for the right MOTIVE?

Define lying and I will take you up on that.

Is lying ONLY done with the tongue?

Is lying any effort to disguise the truth and to cause someone to think something that is not so?

Define lying and we will go from there.

 

A lie;
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

 

Bearing false witness against one's neighbor . . .

And lest one argues that God's enemies are his neighbor: Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. Ps 139:21-22.

 

She didn't lie. She engaged in espionage with God's spies.

But you know what? If it ever works out that I know where you're hiding from your persecutors, and the authorities ask me, I'll be sure to consider your conscience in my answer and be completely open about your whereabouts.

 

You presented a challenge. I cannot take on the challenge if I do not have the appropriate parameters. I cannot have those parameters unless you are willing to clarify them by answering the questions I asked.

You did not.

Please answer those questions so we can move on.

 

Thanks Aaron and you are right. He is misrepresenting what I am saying.

 

well, will you please address the issue ?
what will YOU do if you were in that hypothetical situation ?
you ARE a Christian, and you ARE a freedom fighter, and you ARE confronted by the enemy, and you WILL die and so will others if you say you are a guerilla, and your other option is to deny your being a guerilla, and possibly live.

Your reasons, if you do not like the word motive, is to preserve your life, and that of your fellow fighters.

He gave us that example, and he sincerely did not want to be a Christian because he knows he will, someway along the way, sin.
Mark it well: he knows nothing about eternal security at this point.

Again, YOU are the guerilla fighter. What will YOU do.
He asked us, what will we do.

 

He does not have to know the word of God to know instinctively that he cannot take it upon himself to take another's life. He must have authorization by the state or by God to take one's life. He must ignore the law of conscience to kill a man without authorization.

Cain did this. There was no law written but evil lay at the door according to God. Evil lay at the door because Cain knew good from evil to some degree and ignored his conscience. God condemned him for it.

The murderer of abortion doctors is no different from Cain. Evil lies at the door.

 

Your scenario is something that I would never engage in so it is impossible for me to answer it. You just don't get it! You keep trying to come up with scenarios to get me to say under those circumstances lying is permissible. That will never happen since scripture never teaches that. On the other hand I am not saying that there are not certain circumstances where I might not sin and lie. I hope not, but I don't believe I have arived and I know how easy it is to fail. I am not in those circumstances so I don't know. I might cave in. I am saying that no lie is justifiable before God. Many here are trying to justify sin. I won't do that.
Once someone thinks that they can justify sin, no matter how good their intentions might seem to them or the situatuation seems to require it, they lose any ability to determind what is sin.

 

That is utter bunk.

You just ASSUME that the whole reason God does these things is to keep him from being culpable for sin.

Why is that so? Because you say so???

It is baloney. You have no right to assume why God does what he does unless he TELLS you why he is doing it.

 

I think you both have it wrong. I believe God simply knew the religious leaders would hate Jesus and plot to kill him. Even Pilate recognized they delivered Jesus up out of envy.

I mean, I am only mortal, but I can predict if you went to Mecca during the Muslim's holy season and took out the Bible and started preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ you have a real good chance of being beaten to death on the spot. If you are lucky enough to survive you will be arrested, put in prison, and likely executed soon after.

God didn't have to make the religious leaders kill Jesus, he simply knew they would.

 

No Skandelon. His motive is not Godward if he ignores God's demands written on his conscience.

If his motive is not Godward it is wickedness.

There has not been an ounce of shifting. I do not know why you do this. You are forever claiming that I am flip flopping or shifting when I am not.

I cannot yet tell if it is a lack of understanding or dishonesty that causes you to do this.

I hope it is the former.

You don't get to say, "In my analogy his motive is good" if your analogy bears out that in God's eyes (the only eyes that count) it is CLEARLY evil.

His motive is NOT good- period. Saying it is doesn't make it so.

If the man murders against his conscience ignoring what is clearly against the commands of God written on his heart then the man has a vile and wicked and damnable motive.

No it is a fine example. Cain had no law written to read just as the man in your analogy. Cain killed without the directive of higher authority just like the man in your analogy. Cain was judged because his motive was self centered rather than God centered just like the man in your analogy will be judged for his motive not being Godward.

 

Your only hope IS Calvinism. It's the only system that allows for the fact that one so ignorant of God and His ways can still be known of Him.

"Avoid divine culpability"????????? :laugh::laugh:

A God Who DELIVERED His Son into the hands of murders is not culpable? The One who created this world simply to bring forth that act is not culpable?

:laugh::laugh:

 

Oh, I agree with you, I believe God hiding the gospel from some (especially the religious leaders) was a judgment brought upon them for their continued rebellion and unbelief against God.

God could make anyone believe if he wanted to, he could transport the most rebellious sinner to hell for one hour and that person would immediately repent. But God has not chosen this method, he gave Moses and the prophets (Luke 16). God is merciful and longsuffering, but even God has his limits. At some point a man crosses the line and God gives them up to a reprobate mind. This was the condition of many Jews when Jesus was among them. So, it was a judgment.

 

Here's your problem Luke. Every motive of man is sinful. Every one, because every motive springs from a corrupt heart. So you kind of play into a noncalvinist's hand when you make the argument that motive determines whether an act is sin or not. (I know what you mean, but thy don't think the same way, or they'd be Calvinists.)

When speaking with noncalvinists, you have to keep in mind that they don't see men as we see them. They see them as basically good though defective. They believe that a man can bring good things out of the treasures of a corrupt heart.

It's best to stick to the texts of the Scriptures they think they believe, that by the law is the knowledge of sin, not by the motive. Rahab's act did not violate the law. She did not bear false witness against her neighbor, She did what she did out of the fear of the LORD, and had no other God beside Him. It was an act of faith.