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Is it Time for Female Pastors?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Aug 5, 2011.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    What was the context of this verse?

    Also note, he does not say God does not suffer. He says "I do not suffer............"

    Why did he allow Phoebe to be a deacon?
    Why did he call Junia an apostle?

    Please don't proof text. You can prove anything by selectively picking verses.

    Read Paul's writings in chronological order and see how his writings show a change of opinion about women.
     
    #41 Crabtownboy, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2011
  2. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    This sentence shows why you think the way you think (i.e., you are a liberal). You believe the writings are Paul's and are his opinions. The "writings" are in fact inspired by God Himself and are not opinions, but facts.
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    WD, perhaps we need to define leadership in the church. A deacon, whether male or female, is a leader in a local church.

    But there are different levels of leadership.
     
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    OK let's proof the text:
    1 Timothy 2:
    1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
    2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
    8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
    9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    It appears from verse 1 Paul is setting up the order in which things are to be followed. That our prayers follow a certain order. We are to offer up supplication for every one.
    He makes it clear God accepts the supplication in our prayers and that God's will is for salvation of mankind. Purpose and order is seen. Then He speaks of Christ work God is one and therefore God works within the 3 personalities as one in essence to fulfill His purpose in the order of things as He, not man has set. Then Paul shows his calling into Jesus and the purpose for which he was called.
    The he speaks of mankind praying and the order and way in which God expects of us. Then he speaks of the order and way in which christian women are to conduct themselves. First in the manner of dress, modestly, with shamefacedness (modest, or honorabley or in reverence), with sobriety or self-control, not with twisted hair but in perfect order as on who doesn't standout but as a Godly woman should conduct herself. Let her learn in silence (gr. Hesuchia quietness description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others silence) in subjection (gr. Hupotage the act of subjecting obedience, subjection),.
    Paul speaks of her not to teach men ( Didasko to teach to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses to be a teacher
    to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher to teach one to impart instruction instill doctrine into one the thing taught or enjoined to explain or expound a thing to teach one something) nor is she to have authority ( Authenteo one who with his own hands kills another or himself one who acts on his own authority, autocratic an absolute master
    to govern, exercise dominion over one). She is not to practice didasko nor authenteo over a man. Paul was very clear that a woman was not to be in the position of didasko or authenteo over men in church. That would exclude her from being a pastor since a pastor excercises didasko and authenteo over the church, the men, women and children in the church. Again the theme of order and purpose of the church was what Paul was telling Timothy to set in order for the church. He then says Adam was first formed, the word first (gr. Protos first in time or place in any succession of things or persons first in rank influence, honour chief principal first, at the first) So Adam was first in rank over Eve, Paul makes the order of creation clear and ties it to the order of the church and man's role as well as the womans role. After Adam was formed and given dominion over everything. Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let th em have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    So man had dominion given him before the woman was created. So textual proof shows Paul was setting the order in which a church should follow, the man as the head after of course God (the Son). Very clear the man is to be the Authority over the church not the woman, therefore men are to be pastors and women are not.
    Women are very important parts of the church, teaching other women, teaching children, even leading music as she is not in a place of teaching spiritual things. When it comes to teaching or preaching to men she is not to be authority over him nor is she to desire such a position.
     
    #44 revmwc, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2011
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Diakonos also means simply servant, something we are all called to be. Paul would not contradict his requirements for the office of deacon in the church which was a leadership role
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So let's see what the purpose of the deacon was according to the verse where they were first appointed. This will show whether they were to be leaders or servants.
    Acts 6: 1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
    2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
    3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
    4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
    5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
    6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
    7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

    Seems (v1) the widows were being neglected in the early church. The apostles (church leaders) state that they should not have to be taken away from the word to SERVE tables. The greek for serve:
    Diakoneo:
    to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon
    to minister to one, render ministering offices to
    to be served, ministered unto
    to wait at a table and offer food and drink to the guests,
    of women preparing food
    to minister i.e. supply food and necessities of life
    to relieve one's necessities (e.g. by collecting alms), to provide take care of, distribute, the things necessary to sustain life
    to take care of the poor and the sick, who administer the office of a deacon
    in Christian churches to serve as deacons
    to minister
    to attend to anything, that may serve another's interests
    to minister a thing to one, to serve one or by supplying any thing

    So then in verse 3 says that the church membership was to seek out SEVEN MEN of good report and for what purpose?
    Verse 3 "...whom we may appoint over this business." what business, the serving of tables. Seems the deacons purpose is not that of leadership but to serve or oversee the business affairs of the church, this is not a Spiritual leadership role as that of a Pastor is. The men selected were to be "men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom" but this was in order that they would not take advantage of the church business. So this defines the leadership role versus the serving role of the church.
     
    #46 revmwc, Aug 5, 2011
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  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    From a prominent Southern Baptist church's website. And yes they've got a woman on their pastoral staff.
     
  8. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Just because they do, does that give them more authority than the scrupture?
     
  9. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Are you saying that what Paul wrote was not inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore is not God's word? Or are you saying God changed His mind because He was wrong?
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Which would mean that part of Scripture is wrong. I disagree.
     
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Phoebe was a servant and did not serve the role of deacon. If she DID serve in the role then Paul was a liar.

    Paul never called Junia an apostle. He/she (there is controversy over this) was well known among the apostles. That doesn't mean that he/she WAS one of the apostles.
     
  12. Baptist boy

    Baptist boy New Member

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    It's not time for female pastor nor will there ever be a time as long as the Bible remains the authority for how to run a church.
     
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Yes there is a difference but a woman is not allowed to do either according to scripture so your point is mute unless you are suggesting at thumbing your nose at the word of God.
     
    #53 freeatlast, Aug 5, 2011
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  14. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    There is nothing wrong with accepting truth, but there is great wrong with rejecting God's word by supporting anything that He forbids.
     
  16. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Good words from Dr. Bob:

     
    #56 Jerome, Aug 5, 2011
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  17. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I'm not well studied in Greek but I do have some resources. The same term that is used to describe Phoebe is used in Matthew 23:11 "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." That is not at all describing an office.
     
  18. amthomp17

    amthomp17 New Member

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    A sermon from a woman can be doctrinally sound, sound good and all that, but it's wrong. So, that negates the whole thing.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs: unfortunatley you are absolutely correct here MW.Peter calls pauls writings scripture....all scripture God breathed......scripture..the word of God written.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    We live in a day where some churches have "ordained" practicing sodomites in the pulpit.....so this sin and rebellion is no surprise,just more evidence of decline and apostasy in the churches in our land.
     
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