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Is man born totally depraved or can they become depraved over time?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Its only "confusing and confounding" to someone who has an axe to grind. We both believe the gospel is a means, but the ONLY means with any power to have an effect in your system is the "effectual call" which is what I was addressing. You know as well as I do that in this type of format I don't have the time, energy or desire to fully expound on every complexity of your dogma. We all take shortcuts and make quick arguments based upon already established premises. Resorting to following me around and nit-picking every point I make as if it doesn't fully and accurately depict ever nuance of Calvinism, a system that has within its ranks many who disagree with each other about various subjects, doesn't accomplish anything. Both sides use language that can be interpreted as a "misrepresentation," but an objective debater is able to look past those things to get to the point being discussed, or kindly correct the misrepresentation in order to help the discussion move on. Its clear from the nature of your posts that your goal is to subvert and undermine, not discuss and expound. That is not worth my time...
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Since you find it "confusing and confounding", then it stands to reason you have an axe to grind.
     
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Never said that I found it confusing and confounding, try to keep up John....or better yet, don't.
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Seeing as how the confusion about Calvinism is with you, and since it's abundantly evident that you have an axe to grind, the failure to keep up is yours.
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and always have been. There is Supralapsarianism vs. Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. “The Supralapsarians hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians, that he permitted it” (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues, including lapsarianism. The Swiss Calvinists who wrote the Helvetic Consensus Formula in 1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper (differing especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3 pointers, 2 pointers. In America Calvinists were divided into Old School and the New School. As we have seen, the Calvinists of England were divided in the 19th century.
    Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and then refute it, there are Calvinists who will argue with you that you are misrepresenting Calvinism. It is not so much that you are misrepresenting Calvinism, though. You might be quoting directly from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. The problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism! There are Calvin Calvinists and Thomas Fuller Calvinists and Arthur W. Pink Calvinists and Presbyterian Calvinists and Baptist Calvinists and many other sorts of Calvinists. Many Calvinists have never read Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion for themselves. They are merely following someone who follows someone who allegedly follows Calvin (who, by his own admission, followed Augustine).



    Calvinists believe that they have the right to reject or modify some parts of or conclusions of Calvin. I agree with them 100%, and I say, further, that we also have the right to reject the entire thing if we are convinced that it is not supported by Scripture!
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    So what? So are Arminians. That's off-topic. Division in a theological model neither bolsters nor negates the model in question.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    How very true. Whenever you state a general Calvinist position, they will say you do not understand and misrepresent their position. I bet this has been said to me several dozen times in the last few months.

    But this is a tactic used to deflect from the issue at hand. Instead of addressing the issue, they accuse you of not understanding Calvinism, and then make not one effort to answer the question at hand.
     
    #27 Winman, Dec 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    http://www.wayoflife.org/database/calvinismdebate.html



    What is Plagiarism?

    Many people think of plagiarism as copying another's work, or borrowing someone else's original ideas. But terms like "copying" and "borrowing" can disguise the seriousness of the offense:
    According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, to "plagiarize" means

    • to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own
    • to use (another's production) without crediting the source
    • to commit literary theft
    • to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.
    http://www.plagiarism.org/plag_article_what_is_plagiarism.html
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    oh brother...you don't notice the different font? you think if i were just trying to pass it off as my own that i would at least match the font? and do you think i'm stupid enough to think someone can't google this stuff? I am tired of replying to John endless claims that I misrepresent calvinism and I liked how this brother explained it...yes i should have put it in quotes and had i know i would be accused of plagiarizism on a discussion forum i would have... Plus, this thoughts are not knew, I could have plagerized myself from an earlier post if I wanted to take the time to find it.
    :rolleyes:

    BTW,I didn't copy that from the site you linked...I had it on my computer from some other work I was doing long ago, but thanks for the link, I need that. He has another site besides the one you gave by the way...
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    That's not what's happenning. Skandelon's questions are being answered adequately. He just doensn't like the answer. I can respect that if it's a matter of civil discussion and disagreement. But Skandelon's post mirror that of someone with an agenda rather than someone with a topic.
     
    #30 Johnv, Dec 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    The site I have documented is www.greatpreachers.org and David is a good brother. You all should read the entire site, though I don't agree with all his stuff, he makes some good points. Some I think he stole from me ;)
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    If I liked the answer then we wouldn't be having a debate, would we? But, you rarely if ever actually address the topic at hand so I think I'm done with our discussion.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    "Man is totally depraved" - John Calvin via the institutes and later Dort. He came up with the consept before I did. So there you have it and I acknowldege another man's work though He's been dead a while.
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You didn't provide the page number and proper footnoting format...:smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Yet your response isn't simply to not like the answer, it's to accuse the one who answers of not addressing the topic just because you don't like the answer.
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Do you want it AMA?
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Oh, ok, well then you should have NO PROBLEM showing us all where you addressed the texts I asked about in the OP of this thread, would you?

    I look forward to seeing that. Thanks
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Turabian please
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Why did you capitalize the pronoun for John Calvin?

    Are you under the impression that John Calvin was the first to write about the pervasive corruption of man? If so, you are totally wrong. Aside from men throughout Church History who wrote about it -- the Bible is rather clear on the matter.
     
    #39 Rippon, Dec 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    That's not what I said. I said I got my idea from Calvin. I didn't get it from Augustine though he seemed to say some similar things.
     
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