Is psalm 88 about Jesus? Did he suffer in Sheol and was born again?

Were you there? Niether was the person (or persons) who originally penned Genesis. Regardless, answer the question.

Nice prooftexting, but no substance. "Cite your source" means "provide the scholarship which supports the concept of "spiritually dead." Try that.

Provide Scriptural evidence that my stance is unscriptural. "Ceasing to exist" is a rather clunky way to put it, yes, but death is death, and without the promise of the Resurrection there is no hope beyond the grave.

 

Man, there is SOOOO much wrong with Mr. Princes understanding of scripture I can scarely think of where to begin.
I will state this though - What Mr. Prince is teaching is a direct teaching from the WOF (whether or not you hold to it) movement. I know because I have studied it and refuted it many times over.

But in regard to you OP:

Scirpture states Jesus suffer was ONLY on the Cross. Example (one of many)

-- Thus denoting pouring out His soul (life) to death as we see Him being numbered with the transgrors which is a direct relating to the numbering of dead bodies due to judgment. The entire chapter is about His physical suffering and blood being the atonment for our sins.

Prince also states:

Enduring Gods wrath is true and the freeing of believers since they could not go to heaven until their sins be removed (by Christs blood) not just covered up ( lambs blood) God will not allow sin into heaven. BUT Jesus did not preach to the angels since by the summation Jesus did not go to Hades but to Sheol which is the SAME PLACE as Hades (Acts 2:27) is Greek and Sheol (Psa 16:10) is Hebrew.

You state:

In general - The fact a person uses many scriptures or bible verses does not mean in any stretch of the imagination that are teaching something that is in accordance WITH TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE. Notice I did not saying teaching the bible (as in using verses) as Satan quoted verses verbatim to Christ and they were incorrectly used in the context of the surrounding scriptures that identify that Truth being presented.

This is truth and I agree. Jesus had to make FULL payment so He had to endue God wrath upon Him even to the point of death that He died for all. He carried our sins and was punished to the death for those sins. But it is the blood that removes sin NOT the punishment. Romans 5:8

It was not by His suffering in Hell we are justified but through His suffering on the Cross to the pouring out of His blood (life) that we are made whole.

This is a huge falisy here that Christ went to hell to be punished. First we need to understand something about Christ that makes this impossible. Christ Jesus was without sin as in His Spirit was not tainted or corrupted thus showing spiritually their condemnation as they were marked with imperfection. Christ however was not and when it states He became sin for us does not mean He became a sinner for at that very moment He would be disqualified as a perfect sacrifice that must be without blemish from first to last or it/His death. He became sin means He became the very object of which God could pour out His wrath that was to be FOR the punishment of sin but He willingly to our place.

The first two are correct but the third is completely false with regard to scripture.
on the Second it is of Note that Christ was seperated in the sense God could not look upon Him. It was the first and only time Christ was not in perfect union with God but not that Christ was indeed totally seperated from God. For God can not divide Himself or be at odds or emnity with Himself (with regard to His Divine nature in Christ) The third is completely untrue as Christ was NEVER banished (to never return) from the presence of God therefore did not suffer the second death which BTW is absolute judgment of the lost which Chirst was not one of.

This shows yet again Mr. Princes lack of understanding with regard to the original languages and common figurative references. Sheol again being the Hebrew word for Hell just as Hades is the Greek word, we ALSO find Gehenna is used in the greek figurative sense in place like Matt 10:28

This is a direct reference to a spiritual place of judgment. But this is not the only place, and if you wish more I can provide numerous others concerning Gehenna being figuritive or symbolic of Hades/Sheol.

The whole scapegoat issue is stretching scripture enormously to fit a belief. Each Goat was symbolic, 1. showing the cleanings via blood from sin and 2. showing that the sin is seperated from Gods people and will not return.
If the second goat set free in the wilderness was represent Christ as Prince states Christ could never return so we see his understanding of the symbolism was misconstrued. I can expound upon this to a great degree but only if you ask as I don't see it nesessary to do with what I have presented thus far.

I think I will rest a bit as what I have shown thus far should be enough to show Prince did not even in minority get this right. But hey, it is up to you to look at scripture for what it says or not.

P.S. Psalms 88 has nothing to do with Christ as there is no NT scriptures that ever reference any of this to Christ in a prophetic way. Check commentaries and early church fathers, or any historically acknowledged doctrine of the Church, no one has ever in the teaching of church doctrine used Psa 88 with reference to Christ. If you will but look at it in context you can see why.

 

I think maybe you misunderstood some of what I was saying. I never said Jesus DIDN"T GO into hell as in the place of the condemed or the Lost. (and I agree it was seperated into two parts but that Jesus went to Abrahams bosom or Paradise) What I stated was in accordance with this that I wrote:

Christ did indeed go into hell but it was into paradice that He went. If you will look at Lazarus Luke 16 (verse 10 I believe starts the story) Abraham nor Lararus are in any pain or discomfort but actually IN comfort. And the name itself 'Paradise' gives no illusions to it being anything but a wonderful place though in truth not near Heaven.

My stance is that scripturally Jesus was not nor could never be Born Again. To be born again one must Lost or unsaved as the term is in direct relation to those who are not of or in God. Jesus IS God and can not be lost as His very nature IS God but He clothed Himself in Human 'flesh'... and taking on the 'Form' of man. being tempted in all points yet without sin. This discribes His very nature. Yes He was 100% man but was also 100% GOD! He died as a Man dies but showed in the resurrection He was No mere man but God Himself wrapped in a glorified body. Now as to the scriptures you cite:

With regard to 1 Peter 3:18-19 Please note the context if you will as this is refering to the BODY of Jesus (as it was put to death) and that His BODY will be made alive NOT His Spirit as in Born Agian. Remember context is the key to understanding scripture. As in here - what which was dead (the body) is made alive by the Spirit of God.
Now you may state the following verse proves the quickened of the Spirit is Jesus being born again as He is in Prison. No, not in the slightest. You are born again BEFORE YOU DIE not after (this is paramont in understanding our salvation) It is appointed unto man once to die AND THEN the judgment.
The scruptures are actaully addressing His (Jesus) death when it states "by which He went and preached unto the spirits...) and not His being born again. It was by His literal death (some at this time were diputing that Jesus really died) He entered into hell/paradise

Now with all due respect to Psalm 71, have you actually read it?? Because It IS NOT refering to Christ in any sense of prophey or forshadowing. You state that Psalm 71 is about Jesus. This can not be at all in the context. For one it is about someone looking forward and expecting to grow old as verse 9 and and 18 show.

Jesus knew He was not going to live till He was old or gray headed. The author of this Psalm even asks for length of time more IN his old age that he wont die till he has shown this generation Gods strength and power.

Verses 11 are completely backwards of what happened and inaccurate with regard to the arrest of Jesus and why. It states:

His enimies here are excited that God has forsaken Him and that is WHY they say to persecute and take him for there is none to deliver Him (refering to God forsaking Him). This is a complete contradiction of scripture since the Counsil did not dare to Arrest Jesus before the people for God WAS with Him and that is why the people followed Him. They had to discredit in the eyes of the people FIRST before they could do anything to Him. Which is why it was a trial by night and they paid many people to incite against Jesus. Also God did not forsake Him till Jesus was on the Cross and at the moment of His death, NOT BEFORE and especially not before being arrested.

Verse 20 still has nothing to do with Jesus as this in not a prophetic Psalm in any way shape of form, but just for the record the 'quicken' in this verse is about reviving most definately but it is not not about spiritually being made alive. Why, well look at the verse.:

This was a common anology for being in (as we call it) the depths of despare. The root of that phrase is actually from the verses like this one. How do we know this is an anology because we see this person has been quickened/revivied before and thus the word 'again' that I have embolded. I can go much further with this but I do not feel I need to. Any prophetic passeges are directly spoken or refered to by other authors in the NT. And ALL Passages that are lengthy if not a whole chapter are ALWAYS fulfilled to the letter and not off at ALL - EVER. What I have shown here is simply that these passages Do NOT pertain to Christ nor His death regardless of the vague similarities, scripture is always specific with regard to prophesy.

Now to your last questions:

It does not fit anything pertaining TO Jesus. You are looking at scripture with presupposition to fit it into a view. The context has nothing, abosolutly NOTHING to do with a prophetic account of Jesus being in hell or His death. First and foremost not one NT writter ever alludes to or uses ANY passages from this account, Including Jesus who quoted the OT all the time pertaining to Himself.
Now let us look at the verses you give but let us look at them in context not trying to find some hidden or assumed meaning.

First of all verse 1 declars this person has cried out to God day and night for some time as the Hebrew tense for the verb is one of prolonged action. Jesus anquish was only for a night and even then it was only part of that night.
Verse three states that His life draweth (or is coming close to death but not actually there) This is important as this Psalm is about the dispare of David and Him reminding God of His promises toward him.

 

But for the sake of time let us just say only the verses you mention directly apply to Christ as I can easily and consistantly show this whole psalm does not relate to Jesus death and being in hell.

Look at theses verse in context of what has already been written:

These are not seperate events but one consistant thought. The Psalmist is in great dispair due to those things God has allowed into his life and he fears that God will let him die (Jesus knew He WAS TO die). The verse you are quoting as prophetic are not even close. What the Psalmists says are statements made to God about the dead not being able to enjoy anything of the Lord nor does he praise God being dead. Let me do it this way, maybe seeing it from a different version will help a bit here. (NLT - New Living Translation)

These are statements to God reminding him there is nothing a dead man can do to see, hear, or proclaim the glories of God. And the answer to each of these negitive statements is answer in the same - negitively. These are not verses of Christ But Christ is the antithisis of these verses as He is the hope in Death, and the power of God. Jesus knew He would die horribly for the sins of the world but also KNEW He was going to rise again victoriously and had not doubt about it. There would be no struggle in hell for He AT His death took ownership of the keys (symbolic of authority) Hell and at His Resurrection to for Himself the Keys of Death. As sayeth the scriptures: Death where is they sting, grave where is your victory?

As for verse 18, there is a word that disqualifies this as refering to Jesus.
The word is 'Lover' the hebrew word for this refers to one who is sexually involved. It can also mean freind but the verses bears out this word which distinquishes the first as being one of sexual intent.

Additionally, if you will note this psalmist consistantly and continually is speaking of praying for God to have mercy (1,2,9,13) and is doing this over a longer period of time than just a night which is how long it took to Jesus to be a peace and full assurance of what He will do.

Hope this helps - God be praised as we bless His Most Holy Name !

 

After a quick glance at this thread, I'd offer that I've posted something on some of this in the Baptist only section, which one who does not even happen to be Baptist can at least read, if not post, I believe. The thread is on page 1, titled "How were people saved in the OT?. My poosts are #25, and #30, that may have some bearing on this. As to the OP, one could draw some ideas from Psalm 88, that are Messianic related, perhaps, but I don't see anything in Psalm 71 to any such effect.

Ed

 

I agree with you on the basis one can draw ideas from Psalms 88 and show vague types of similarities but not that they are ABOUT Christ specifically. This is what we were discussing, that the OP is saying the Psalms 71 and 88 are speaking of Jesus in the prophetic sense - spefically of Jesus being punished in Hell as the final appeasment of Gods wrath for our salvation and then Jesus IS BORN AGAIN and resurrected. Since I know you don't agree with that particular doctrine (and obviously niether do I), you can see why we are discussing this.

I have read your posts on that thread and I agree it would help shed a different light on it as well, thanks.

 

xdx, may I direct your attention to my last post for your response.

 

You're doing, then, what you accuse everyone else of doing when you post questions.

 

ROFL

Help I can't get up . . . tragedy has stuck in true discipled form . . .

Now you are doing what you accuse me of doing . . .

ROFL!

:saint:

Why can't we just get along? Does it even matter if xx is faking his faith?

:1_grouphug:

 

Wait!

Does xx expect true faith once in a while?

ROFL

:laugh:

 

PS - you both need discipleship from a God fearing man.

But, you would rather find people on the internet that can tickle your ears . . .

 

GE:
Your aim is wicked, and obviously so. You won't fool any like that"famous pentecostal preacher" of yours did!

Your 'look at this Scripture; what do you see?' is as false it's farcical. Look at what you do not quote!

Jesus was raised from the dead - 'quickened' - by the Holy Spirirt -- it's all over the New Testament. What you pretend to have discovered is NOWHERE in Scripture; only in your distorted mind.

 

When I want an opinion on Christianity and discipleship, rest assured that I will most decidedly not seek it from the likes of you.

 

It doesn't actually matter who says what but what God says that matters.

Peter knew and understood Gods word but he was not right on a piece of it and had to be rebuked to the face by another apostle (Paul). We are men and no matter how much education, men are still men and falible. I don't think Prince was actaully a WOF'er either, I was only stating this is a doctrine they hold to. But understand that it is from this doctrine part of their belief is that we a gods ourselves just not God. Jesus is born again with authority and power then so are we. but anyway...

The point is what he was stating is contradictory to other parts of scripture which means either scripture is wrong (God forbid) or the view that holds the contradiction is wrong. Scripture will never contradict scripture but it does always interpret other scriptures.

 

Thank you.

:laugh: