Featured Is repentance needed for salvation?

The Redeemed sinner will repent. The unredeemed sinner will never repent.

 

Now you all over the place Austin. Redemption always comes with a price Austin. No price paid - no Redemption. And that price can be as well REPENTANCE and CONFESSION.

The price for Redemption comes in many different forms, but in case of forgiveness and salvation, the price for Redemption will be REPENTANCE and CONFESSION. Faith in this case has no part in it, because Faith belongs to a different group of qualities which is far ahead and much higher in status than Repentance and Confession.

But in some occasions HOPE goes first and then Repentance - Confession, just like with a bandit on the cross. The bandit has no time to do anything to save himself, and so he turned to Christ as a last option and asked Him, "Jesus, remember me when You come into Your Kingdom!"

So the bandit, at the last moment not only has a spark of conscience saying, "Do you not even fear GOD, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this Man has done nothing wrong," but he also put his HOPE (which is not Faith) in Christ and asked him to remember him in His Kingdom.

See Austin, the another bandit who did not REPENTED - perished. Did GOD push the bandit to REPENT, of course not, bandit did it himself without help or push from GOD because he still contained some amount of conscience, and because of his invoked conscience, it saves him from eternal condemnation. The bandit done it on his own initiative, and he saved himself.

Austin wrote:
"Do you really think *your verses prop up human will as the cause agent of repentance?" Exactly!

*My verses? I only wish they will be mine verses! It is GOD'S verses, because entire Bible inspired by the Lord, so you did not arguing against me, you arguing against GOD'S Word.

In your argument your presented practically nothing, and even that you presented about Faith is completely out of place. Faith is the most highest level of Believing in GOD. The usual, but not always, order of things is this, that you have to REPENT and CONFESS first, as John the Baptist required from people who came to him.

Then goes Baptism. After Baptism goes life in Christ - fulfillment of Laws, Statutes, and Commandments of GOD, then Spiritual growth into a certain Spiritual level of Perfection, means from the ordinary Believer to a Faithful follower of Christ, and only then may come Salvation.

Of course under certain condition the order of things can change and be a little bit different, but according to the Bible it is a general rule and order of growth in Christ.

But your order of things is completely opposite of the Biblical order, you constantly put Faith first before everything, but Faith is not the ordinary quality, it stands very high in the Spiritual level of experienced Christian and requires years to achieve.

Love, Faith, Dedication, Loyalty, Mercy, Compassion Works of Faith, are the result and culmination of such Spiritual growth.

Basically in your argument you jumped from the "elementary school" into "academy."

 

Jesus redeems. Jesus paid the price for his sheep.
Repentance is an effect of God's redemption of his chosen ones.

 

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart."
That, right there, is the making alive of a person dead in their trespasses and sins. The effect of God's work is our repentance.

Thank you for sharing God's word.

 

The Baptist belief in OSAS prompted the preacher at our local Baptist mega-church to bellow, "If you walk down this aisle and commit your life to Christ, you can curse God to His face when you leave here, but you'll still be saved!" Translation: Cheapen and debase God's grace just to get your ticket punched to Heaven. That way, post-conversion confession of sin and repentance are conveniently optional because Jesus paid the price for all our sins, past and future. So Baptists find it easy to ignore the command of Jesus' brother: "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other, so that you may be healed (James 5:16)." Thank God for Catholic fidelity to God's Word in their confession to priests and their recognition (1) that good works are a necesSary (but not sufficient! Grace is needed.) condition for salvation (James 2:14) and (2) that you must therefore "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:13)! Catholics recognize what Baptist forget--that in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness." So Catholics rightly teach that we are saved by a new way of being, a "new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5;17)." Hence, in our town, our local Catholic church has grown from disillusioned Baptist and other Evangelical converts, who seek a Gospel with a high cost for true discipleship.

 

If that man believes that he is lost and w/o Christ

Tell him Marooncat79 said so. Aka Bill M

 

Where does the verse say "the people had to accept it before their hearts were pricked?"
You are forcing your presupposition on the text.
Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus. No mention of God saying "will you accept this." Again, you are forcing your presupposition on scripture when scripture does not teach what you are teaching.

 

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, "what you change your mind about" and faith in Christ is on the positive side, "the new direction of this change of mind." *Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ.

In the context of Luke 13:3, Jesus challenged the people's notion that they were morally superior to those who suffered in such catastrophes. He called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Certain people misunderstand the term "repentance" to simply mean "moral self-reformation" or "completely stop sinning." That is not the Biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word "repent" means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. "This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) and not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Certain people confuse the "fruit of repentance" with the "essence of repentance" (and also do the same thing with faith) and end up teaching salvation by works.

I have heard certain people say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And in that case, it is unlikely that anyone will be saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever "completely stopped sinning" -- 100% of the time. Only Jesus Christ lived a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time.

 

Do we sin?

If so shouldnt repentance be implied against a Holy God

 

To Mailman.

So many times I heard about Greek translation of the certain words in the Bible, and every time translation always has been done in the favor of one or another doctrine of those who trying to twist and bend original meaning of the word into their own meaning as they like to perceive it.

And you Mailman do the same thing to the word that original meaning is ask for forgiveness and confess own sins. And you done it for one reason only, because you do not believe in repentance and confession.

For the same reason the "church of Christ" does not play music in their churches. They have Book of Hymns and they sing them but without musical accompaniment.

The reason for such stupidity is the one obscured some Greek word they found somewhere and interpreted it in their own twisted way, and declared that because of such word music shall not be played in the church, ignoring the fact that Bible contains quite numerous passages there not only music played on many different occasions but also indicate some musical instruments used for playing.

 

Actually, I do believe in repentance and confession and I really don't appreciate your straw man argument or your slander. As I already pointed out, to repent means to think differently or afterwards reconsider. To perceive afterwards, change of mind. To change one's mind or purpose. That is the original meaning of the word. Not sure why you are trying to twist it. Speaking of the church of Christ, they change the scriptural order of repentance and faith by placing repentance "after" faith and basically define repentance as "moral self-reformation." To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

People who attend the church of Christ typically cannot seem to grasp a deeper faith which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which also explains why they have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation.

In regards to instrumental music in church, the church of Christ claims that no musical instruments were used in the first century church, yet in Ephesians 5:19, we read - "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm is "psallo" which means to means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument.

 

I have highlighted your definition of repentance.
To perceive afterwards, change of mind. To change one's mind or purpose.

I accept this definition. The key is that you "perceive afterwards" and then change your mind. This fits with Ephesians 2, which tells us we were dead in our trespasses and sins. God, by grace, makes us alive with Christ, saves us, and gives us faith.

Notice that repentance cannot exist in a dead state, just as your definition states. To perceive how detestable our sins are, we must be awakened to our sin and rebellion. We will not/cannot repent beforehand.

We see this repentance in the Thessalonians, in Thessalonians 1, where the Thessalonians were saved by grace first and then it is reported that the had "turned to God from idols" which shows your definition.

Therefore, your definition clearly presents that repentance is not the cause that moves God to save a person. Repentance is always an effect of God saving someone.
If a person has an emotional confession and prays the sinners prayer, but their life returns to wickedness, you can see that they did not repent, but instead they cried out in remorse, while they desperately attempted to maintain full control of their life. In essence, they hoped God would be their genie and get them out of the pickle they were in.

Thank you for your definition. I would think all people who hold to particular salvation would agree.

 

To Mailman.

You wrote: "Actually, I do believe in repentance and confession and I really don't appreciate your straw man argument or your slander.."

If you do believe in repentance why you try to alter definition of the word and refer to some Greek translation? Is not the word itself means in the simple English language that repentance is basically confession of sins? Why you need Greek translation for this word which is in Greek it perhaps means very much the same thing?

I noticed that every time someone who does not like the passage of the Bible immediately turns to Greek translation, and as a rule always misinterpreted the word in his own way. You done the same thing, read your own post! Above all, there is no slander or any kind of insult toward you in my post, I made my assessment according to that you wrote.

And again you still trying to twist the meaning of the word and you wrote, "As I already pointed out, to repent means to think differently or afterwards reconsider.."

No sir, REPETANCE is not to think differently or reconsider, this is that YOU come up with. The MS thesaurus described this word like this: Regret, Sorrow, Remorse, Penitence, Atonement, Shame.

And this is how Wikipedia described the word:


Repentance
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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For other uses, see Repentance (disambiguation).

Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs, which is accompanied by commitment to and actual actions that show and prove a change for the better. In Judaism and Christianity it is often defined as an action, turning away from self-serving activities and turning to God, to walk in his ways. [1]

This confession might include an admission of guilt, a promise or intent not to repeat the offense, an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.


See, this is absolutely different from that you wrote, and again, you claim, "Actually, I do believe in repentance and confession." But I do not believe you, because how you believe in repentance and confession when you still attaching to the word a completely wrong meaning, "to repent means to think differently or afterwards reconsider.."


Concerning music in the church I will repeat again that this is so stupid and unconsidered to created out of thin air a doctrine not to play music in the church just because the word "music' is absent in these to passages: Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16.

But the pastor to whom I talking to in the church of Christ did not presented this verses to me, he just told me some Greek word which of course I do not remember now, and when I asked him," Is it not strange not to play music in the church because of some questionable translation of some Greek word make any sense? He did not answer me, he walk away.

 

I did not alter the definition and the NT was originally written in Greek then later translated into English and various other languages.

Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: to change one's mind or purpose
Usage: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.
HELPS Word-studies
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

Strong's Greek: 3340. μετανοέω (metanoeó) -- to change one's mind or purpose

μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o; from G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):—repent.

G3340 - metanoeō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NASB)

Strong's Concordance
metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3341 metánoia – literally, "a change of mind" ("after-thought"); repentance. See 3340 /metanoeō ("repent").

Strong's Greek: 3341. μετάνοια (metanoia) -- change of mind, repentance

Your post certainly did contain slander. You falsely accused me of trying to twist the original meaning of repentance and you also falsely accused me of not believing in repentance and confession.

I already proved to you what repentance means, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. You need to read the Strongs Concordance in order to understand what repentance means from the original Greek instead of Wikipedia.

Repentance certainly does mean to think differently or reconsider.

3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o; from G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):—repent.

You are confusing emotions that may accompany repentance with the definition of repentance.

I'll stick with the Strongs Concordance. As I already explained in post #31, the Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. "This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) and not the essence of repentance (change of mind).

I'm not surprised that the definition of repentance from Wikipedia is different from the original Greek definition of repentance from Strongs Concordance, but as I previously said, I will stick with the Strongs Concordance. I find your statement ironic, as I do believe in repentance and confession, but I do not believe you because you attach a wrong meaning to repentance and refuse to accept the true meaning of repentance from the original Greek. You are not fooling me for one second.

The church of Christ takes a legalistic approach in regards to instrumental music in church.

I'm not surprised that the church of Christ pastor walked away. The church of Christ also re-defines repentance to basically mean "moral self-reformation" and they place it "after" faith in obtaining salvation and their definition of faith falls short of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which results in a perverted gospel.

 

What is the cause agent that moves ourselves to change our mind?
What is the cause of this paradigm shift so that people repent?

People want to have a paradigm shift without a cause, which then moves God to save a person. That cannot happen. God is the cause of the paradigm shift. God is the cause of our repentance. Therefore, God tells us that He makes us alive with Christ and gives us faith, by grace. This is salvation, which is the cause agent to our repentance.

 

To Mailman.

You wrote:
"Your post certainly did contain slander. You falsely accused me of trying to twist the original meaning of repentance and you also falsely accused me of not believing in repentance and confession."

Yes, I still believe that you do not believing in repentance and confession, because how you can believe in it if you took the essence, substance, and meaning from REPENTANCE and CONFESSION, and make these words empty shell!

What kind of REPENTANCE and CONFESSION will be without Regret, Sorrow, Remorse, Penitence, Atonement, Shame.

You turned to Greek translation in order to alter the meaning of these words, and according to you Greek translation these words means just "change of mind" "reconsider" and "think differently."

Such "repentance" and "confession" without their definitions do not exist. How possibly you can repent before the Lord without regret? How you can apologies to anyone without feeling sorry?

Oh, I get it, instead of apology you simply saying to people, "I change my mind sir!" or "I reconsider." or "I think differently" Did any one said to you a couple "sweet words" for this?

"Change of mind?" in what Mailman?

In all languages some words may have number of different meanings and definitions, and certainly in Greek as well. In this case should we translate every single English word into Greek again? Or only those words which looks inappropriate to some.

Did scholars who translated Greek Bible on English language already done it? And they done it very well. Why you again referring to Greek language and try to alter and modify the meaning of the English words?

I am absolutely sure that translation from Greek to English done in the right way and deserve our full trust, confidence, reliance, and faith. The scholars who translated Bible chose specifically English words REPENTANCE and CONFESSION when they translated these words from Greek. For some reason they did not chose your words you presented. And who is right here, you or them?

Are you better translator than they are? Try to attach different definition and to English words as well. Or translate to us entire Bible from Greek to English the way you see it.

And I tell even more, you never truly repented before the Lord according to that you wrote. Because you cannot apologies to the Lord by saying, "I change my mind sir!" or "I reconsider." or "I think differently"

Say this "repentance" of yours in your church, I would like to see reaction of people who will hear such "confession."

 

No.


Joy unspeakable full of glory