Is Roman Catholicism accurate in every detail?

I voted #1. It's more than flawed theology. When you pray to and worship other human beings...that's a cult. They did the same thing in Waco, with Jim Jones, etc.

 

Here are some of the items that were brought up. As noted below, many denominations teach these things -- not just the Catholics.

- Salvation by Baptism
There are many Christian denominations that teach this, notably the Church of Christ.

- Infant Baptism
Most Protestants & Orthodox also baptize infant children of believers in addition to adult baptisms.

- Baptism by sprinkling
Most Protestants & Orthodox also sprinkle or pour rather than immerse.

- Clergy system with hierarchy
Many Christian denominations have a clergy hierarchy -- Episcopalians & Methodists come to mind. Most Protestants have a denominational hierarchy.

- Holy Tradition
Many Christian denominations also consider tradition -- in various degrees and forms.

- Transubstantiation
Most other Christian denominations hold to a different view than the memorial only view that the Baptists have, though Protestants do not hold to a "trans" view.

- Chemarim costumes
Many Christian clergy wear robes, with various significance attached.

 

That is the paganism which the Protestants couldn't get rid of from Roman Catholicism, even though they repudiated many other practices of Rome.

However, if you check with so-called Plymouth Brethren, you will find none of the above practices of Rome except the Biblical traditions such as Head-Covering, Lord Supper, Believers Baptism by total Immersion, etc. I don't think PB's are the only group which has followed the NT teachings, but there has been all the time the believers who obeyed the NT teachings throughout the history.

BTW, was Spurgeon wrong when he defined the Pope as the Anti-Christ?

 

Wow. I guess it feels really good to be with the only group that still gets it right. Good for you.

The point was that a lot of denominations have similar beliefs with what you refer to "paganism" of the Catholic church. I hardly think that those denominations -- Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Church of Christ, etc. are non-Christian. Just wondering, what do you think? Do you lump them into the same grouping as the Catholics?

Also, I know our church's doctrine is based upon Scripture -- not upon a carryover of Catholicism. -- as you so stated. My guess is that the other denominations listed above (and others) believe the same.

Lastly, I have no idea who the anti-Christ was or is or will be.

 

I am not very sure whether our group of people are the only group, because we meet sometimes the other Christian believers who follow exactly the teachings of Bible, even though the groups are not so many or big. Some Independent churches were exactly right to follow NT teachings. We believe that there were so many small groups in the history which tried to follow the NT teachings, and sometimes they tried to materialize the beliefs in their lives. They might have been called Independent Brethrenm, Independent Baptists, Children of God etc.

I think you are exaggerating the situation here.
For example, do Presbyterians deny the Sola Scriptura and accept the Apocrypha? NOPE! Do they make Idols and worship them? NOPE! Do they call Mary as Mother of God? NO! I know many Presbyterians and they don't perform the Infant Baptism at all, but just do the Baptism by sprinkling. They read the Bible a lot more than RCC. By reading the Bible, they have the great chance of salvation by being born again. They don't have the obligatory celibacy for their pastors, nor Confession to the Pastors, No Lent etc. I don't think they are all saved, but they all are unsaved either.

Then let's go to Wesleyan, they perform the Baptism by immersion, they read the Bible and often base their teachings and activities on the Bible teachings, don't call Mary as their Mother of God, don't believe in the Purgatory, nor prayer to the Dead, nor Prayer for the Dead, Extreme Unction after Death, no prayer to Mary, no more sacrifice by Mass, they don't make Idols, nor worship Idols. They reject Infant Baptism, Baptismal Regeneration, Papacy, Papal Infallibility. They believe Sola Gratia and Sola Fide, too. However, they have the Clergy system even though they are quite loose as they ordain the believers who have not graduated from any formal seminary. So, are you saying Wesleyans are the same as Roman Catholic? NOOOPEE!
They may have certain residues from Anglican church practices, but there are so many practices thru which they can still receive the grace of God and salvation.

It is a stupid analogy if anyone equalize many of protestants groups with RCC jsut because they share certain human traditions or because the protestants have some pagan practices brought from RCC

When I said there are many pagan practices even in Protestant groups, I meant this: One group may have A paganism, the second group may have B paganism, the 3rd group may have C paganism, 4th group may have D paganism while RCC have A,B,C, ..Z. all together.

Moreover, the protestant groups problems are not the fundamental issues such as Salvation and the Bible itself, while RCC has the problem with the Salvation first denying the effect of Crucifixion ONCE FOR ALL, then in the definition of God as a son of a woman, with Idolatry. Purgatory, etc.

Sola Scriptura is one of the fundamental doctrines which the churches should maintain, in addition to the Salvation by Faith Alone. However, even such churches which are founded on the right foundation may have more or less problems by departing the truth taught in NT. For example, I know many True believers' churches do not have their women believers wear the Head-Coverings. Even though I believe that it should not be neglected, but still I accept such churches as within the range of tolerance and acceptance.
As you know RCC don't believe Sola Scriptura as they believe Apocrypha and ECF's.

My point is that What is wrong is wrong even if many protestant churches are still within the range of tolerance or acceptance.
Also, we must recognize the differences in degree of the deviations and divergences among the protestant groups. Some groups like Bible Baptists are very much faithful to the NT teachings though they have the Mono-pastoral system.
Others like Presbyterians have the Mono-Pastoral system plus Baptism by sprinkling and often teach that they are born again as soon as they decided to attend the church, which doesn't confirm the personal acceptance of Jesus as the personal Lord and Savior in their heart thru Holy Spirit. In that case the problem is getting quite serious I believe.
So, there are huge differences even among the Protestant groups.

Moreover again, many Baptist churches have followed the right paths in their faith throughout the history. I don't think Berbe of Waldensians were like Clergy system at all but just the Elders ( overseers) in the Bible following all the teachings of NT.

You don't know about who will be Anti-Christ, then how can you title yourself as a Friend of Spurgeon?
You didn't answer properly on this question.

My question was this " Was Spurgeon wrong when he defined Pope as the Anti-Christ."

If you don't know about the Anti-Christ, you may not know whether you are following the Anti-Christ now, right?

It seems that you don't know very much about Spurgeon by faith.


Finally. I want eveyone to think about the difference between their Ancestors and the Descendants, e.g.
between Baptists of the London Baptist Confession 1689 and todays modern Baptists
between Martin Luther who fought RCC and Modern Lutheran
JOhn Wesley and Modern Methodists. Were the Ancestors wrong?

 

As far as Primitive Baptists go, you should find no difference.

 

I am talking about the individual difference. I have met many "Catholic Baptists" here.

 

The liberal mantra of the unbeliever (not necessarily you) is:
God is a God of love; He would never send any one to Hell; He is too loving to do that.
The fact is that God will send all to Hell that rejects His Son.
For God is not only a God of love, but a holy God and a just God.

One cannot believe in the heresies of the RCC and be a Christian at the same time. One cannot believe in the devil's doctrines and be a Christian at the same time. One cannot believe in the RCC's plan of salvation and what the Bible teaches about salvation at the same time. One must choose between these two systems: either to be a RC or to be a Christian. You cannot be both.

It is not a matter of hatred. That is a false accusation or assessment.
It is a matter of truth vs. error.

 

Many PBs practise infant baptism; whilst they don't believe in baptismal regeneration, they do believe that in some way it gives the infant a 'spiritual head-start' in some way (the phrase commonly used is that it gets the baby 'into the Outer (Temple) Precincts')

 

DHK,

Of course it isnt hatred. But thats the accepted charge that is thrown our way when we simply compare Gods truth found in the scriptures against the un-truths and blasphemies of the Catholic Church.

If we hated the Catholics, we wouldnt say anything about these issues and just let them continue to be lost. Its because we love Catholics that we show them the truth, and expose the Catholic errors.

"Have I become your enemy, for telling you the truth?"

--Paul the Apostle

Mike

 

Correction "you suppose" that all of these groups "just so happen" to break away from the RCC and retain portions of her doctrinal errors "by accident". Or maybe you think "it is magic" that in their differing beliefs that hold to the old RC doctrines to varying degree the RC history for those groups "magically vanished"???

How can you even begin to make such an illogical statement???

in Christ,

Bob

 

Eliyahu's list modified --

Friend of Spurgeon tried to "pick and choose" through this list as some of his own practices came up in the list.

But the overall list still remains "impressive".

If a NEW church came into being today with all of these error - it would SURELY be labelled as a cult.

Maybe Friend-of-Spurgeon's points about gross doctrinal errors NOT UNIQUE to the RCC can be addressed on a dedicated thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are making a groundless Slander or misunderstand about PB greatly.

None of PB's perform Infant Baptism. If anyone does, she or he is not so-called PB.

If your claim is not a slander, please present any Assembly( church) of PB which perform Infant Baptism.
Please let me know any single church of so-called PB's which perform Infant Baptism.

You may be making the same accusation as the Inquisitors of RCC made against the True Believers dissenting to them. RCC re-wrote their confession and practices as if they had done what they didn't do actually.
You are in the same trap! If I am wrong PLEASE present any address of the assemby which you saw or heard perform the Infant Baptism.

That accusation is far away from the truth and facts!

It may be so much far away from the truth and facts as someone may be claiming that the Pope is eating the human flesh and drinking human blood every day for his daily meals.
So, please show me concrete and detail information about your source. If you cannot, you are slanderous groundlessly.

 

But do you believe in the Baptismal Regeneration for the Infants? I need some explanation on " Mark Soul in the Infant Baptism"

In your modification, Theotokos mentions " God the Son of Mary " I hope you don't agree with " Mary is the Mother of God the Son " because the Deity of God the Son didn't come from Mary. God the Son did exist before Mary was born and actually God the Son was the Creator or Mary.

In Montreal I saw some family going to Mexico to get the Infant Baptism for their son at cheaper price because it cost too much in Montreal, but if they do it in Mexico, it cost much less even after adding the airfares.
Maybe they may have to search for the place where they can die at cheaper price too.

 

By item:

-Salvation by Grace + Works, sins paid for by YOU vs Christ
Actually, in their practice, your works are `supplication deeds' for the grace Christ paid for all by Himself. Biblically unauthorized.

- Salvation by baptism ( Baptismal Regeneration of infants)
With modifications. One can be saved in their system without getting wet. Read the Catechism.

- Baptism by sprinkling ( Pagan holy water dropped on the forehead) which doesn’t teach the burial of old person and resurrection with Jesus Christ.
Their Catechism has acknowledged the meaning of the Greek word, and an increasing number of Catholic congregations now immerse.

- Mariolatry
Mary is never worshiped as a goddess. Their veneration of her stops short of that. Biblically unauthorized.

- Worship "at Mary's altars"
See above.

- Idol making for Mary or Joseph or Jesus or saints, dead ancestors etc
An idol is a statue of a god or goddess. None of these are considered gods or goddesses. Biblically unauthorized.


- Immaculate Conception of Mary
Actually taught. Biblically unauthorized.

- Assumption : Ascension of Mary
Actually taught. Biblically unauthorized.

- Theotokos : calling Mary Mother of God, meaning God the Son of Mary.
Actually, it is Mary mother of God the Son = Jesus. Biblically unauthorized.

- Mary as Mother of Church
Based on her being mother of Christ, and the church being His body. Possible, but I doubt it -- I am going to stick with what is written.

- Queen of Heaven
Common in Catholic lingo.

- Clergy system with magic powers
What? Not official.

-- to create God in the Eucharist
Actually, it is believed God does this at the prayer of the priest.

-- to "mark the soul" of the infant in baptism
Actually taught. It is believed God marks the soul. Biblically unauthorized.

-- to receive confession and absolve from sin
It is believed God chooses to honor the priest's decision. Biblically unauthorized.

- Papacy under the model of pagan pontiffs
Biblically unauthorized. Such a system did not exist in the decades immediately after the New Testament either.

- Papal infallibility
Biblically unauthorized.

- tradition greater than and or equal to scripture.
Theoretically equal to, practically above. Biblically unauthorized.

- No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church
Now denied. It is now believed one can be outside the Roman Catholic church and still be saved.

- Purgatory, indulgences,
Biblically unauthorized.

- Limbo
Never officially taught. Rejected in the last few months; unbaptized children are now assumed to go to Heaven. Do you watch the news? There was a thread over this.

- RC Mass as the SOLE means of entering the New Covenant and "Christ in you"
I know nothing of this yea or nay.

- Extreme Unction after death
I know nothing about this practice yea or nay.

- Prayer to Dead ancestors, church fathers etc
Biblically unauthorized.

- Prayer thru the Dead ancestors, church fathers.
Biblically unauthorized.

-Prayer for the Dead ancestors, friends
Biblically unauthorized.

-Pray wheels, beads etc
Biblically unauthorized.

- all the signs of pagan origin such as ankh cross, mark of IHS, threefold hats for the Pontiffs, etc.
It has not been proven all of these are of pagan origin.

- inquisition - extermination and torture of the saints
Now over.

- Indulgence
Mentioned already. You must really hate this. Biblically unauthorized.

- Bible burning - Bible restricting history
Yes and no. Catholic and Orthodox copyists are responsible for nearly all manuscripts we have of the medieval period. Had these manuscripts not existed, Reformation-era Bible translations would not exist.
Also, the past is the past. Presently, Catholics are encouraged to read the Bible -- although Catholic editions of Scripture at present encourage not believing every detail of it.

But I know, I know. You do not care one iota if your assertions are accurate -- `anything goes' for Roman Catholicism, as far as you are concerned.

 

Darron,

Would you verify clearly what you meant by " Biblically Unauthorized" ?

Did you mean that RCC has been or is performing such practices even though they are unauthorized by Bible teachings?

 

If anything, you are the one who doesn't care about accuracy...as your "definitions" to Eliyahu's list are inaccurate. If you pray to a nother human being, you are holding that person up as a god / goddess. Period.

 

How would you explain the following verses based on your definition of IDOL.

Deuteronmy 4: 16 lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the form of any figure, the pattern of male or female,17 the pattern of any beast that is on the earth, the pattern of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, 18 the pattern of anything that creepeth on the ground, the pattern of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; 19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes to the heavens, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, the whole host of heaven, and be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath assigned unto all peoples under the whole heaven.

When RCC pray to Mary from all over the world, by 1.3 billion, throughout the 2000 years, can any human being accept such prayers and pass them to God? Is such prayer to Mary possible without believing the Omni-Presence and Omni-Science of Mary which are available only in the Deity?

Was the Deity of Jesus Christ produced by Mary?
Didn't Jesus have the Deity before He was born out of Mary?
Is Mary Mother of God the Father?
Is God the Father God?
Then Is God the Father God in the phrase of "Mother of God"?
Then Is God the Father not the God in the phrase of " Mother of God"?
In the Bible, at least 3,640 times the word " God" appears, among them, how many times does it mean God the Father and God the Son, do you know?

Where did you find the word " Mother of Christ" ? Did you learn it from Nestorius? Show me any Bible saying Mother of Christ!
Christ is the Husband of Church, and the Church is the Bride for Him, then what relationship can you explain between Mother of Church and Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom of Church?

Can you find any Words in the Bible that Church has the Mother?

Or would you read this:

Galatians 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


1 Peter 3:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.


Doesn't Bible say that our mother is Sarah?



Hope the other items will be commented by others.

 

It is a matter of folks like you who, deep down, simply don't like the Catholicses, and rejoice in your heart to decide that God likes you better than them, and will thus send them to just the kind of Hell you imagine exists for all those evil people who don't look, talk, or (gasp) think like you.

It's like this: you all are the Fred Phelps of antiCatholicism. All you lack are the cheaply printed signs.

 

Don't they have the power to perform the miraclce to change the Wine into Blood by their consecration? Even you mentioned that they Create God in the Eucharist.

One example of Magic Power!

Originally I understand it meant the Unction at the deathbed before the death. However, though I am not sure all the churches of RCC perform this, but I know some do this even after death while the body is still warm.

After someone dies who never believed in Jesus Christ, the priest comes in and anoint the dying body, anointing the oil on the forehead of the body before death or after death while the body is still warm, then the person can go to heaven.

The article in the dictionary may not reflect all the practices of RCC:


To perform this rite fully takes an appreciable time, but in cases of urgent necessity, when death is likely to occur before it can be completed, it is sufficient to employ a single unction (on the forehead, for instance) with the general form: "Through this holy unction may the Lord pardon thee whatever sins or faults thou hast committed." By the decree of 25 April, 1906, the Holy Office has expressly approved of this form for cases of urgent necessity.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm


You can find the objections by the believers in the following sentences:

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, cap. i, De Extr. Unct.) teaches that "this sacred unction of the sick was instituted by Christ Our Lord as a sacrament of the New Testament, truly and properly so called, being insinuated indeed in Mark [vi, 13] but commended to the faithful and promulgated" by James [Ep., v, 14, 15]; and the corresponding canon (can. i, De Extr. Unct.) anathematizes anyone who would say "that extreme unction is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ Our Lord, and promulgated by the blessedApostle James, but merely a rite received from the fathers, or a human invention".
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm

But the saint, overhearing the debate, demanded that it should be given at once, and with his dying breath exclaimed: "Now dismiss thy servant in peace, because I have received all the sacraments of Thy mystery" (P.L., CXX, 1547).

But in practice, they often extend the Unction even after the death.

In case of Sudden Death, they have no time to repent and so on, and the person is already dead by the ACcidents. Then someone must call the priest immediately and RUSH to bring the priest, and do the Unction to the dead body while the body is still warm.

What should be done in case of sudden death?
Send for a priest right away, because Extreme Unction may be given even after a person is apparently dead.
Even when a person displays all the usual manifestations of death, the soul may still not have departed from the body. Therefore, the Church allows Extreme Unction to be administered for a item after "death" has occurred.http://www.olrl.org/Lessons/Lesson27.shtml


What should be done in case of sudden death? Send for a priest right away because Extreme Unction may be given even after a person is apparently dead. Even when a person displays all the usual manifestations of death, the soul may still not have departed from the body. Therefore the Church allows Extreme Unction to be administered for a time after "death" has occurred.

http://users.churchserve.com/asia/sfamy/extreme.htm

I may know more about Catholicism than the Catholic people do!

You can find the Unction in the Bible was used for healing, but not for pardoning the sick from the sin.