Is sinless perfection possible for the believer before death?

Amen Plain and simple. This is the only perfection man can attain even if it is only for a little while.
MB

 

No we do not have an old nature. Also before Moses there was not written law.

 

Thank you for your thoughts but I gave you the proof you asked for and I stand on what the bible says.

 

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man.

While in the flesh, will the free will of man always choose to sin? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Cut yourself and post back whether you bled of not.

Adam did not fall per say, he did not become flesh and blood the day he sinned. He was not made for the kingdom of God as he was created. All humans after Adam including Jesus were/are born of the flesh and are flesh.
For the very purpose for the Son of God, the sinless one who did not deserve to be paid the wages of sin, could come as his type, figure and destroy him that had the power of death Satan, in whose presence for some strange reason Adam was put. Jesus the Christ came into the world a living soul just like Adam yet without sin, died for us and as the last Adam was resurrected a quickening Spirit fit for the kingdom of God. Two verses
1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. After the resurrection.
Well so far that has only happened to Jesus.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Made perfect is relative to his resurrection, this day have I begotten (born) thee, which also established him to be made high priest after the order of Melchisedec. See 5-10 same chapter.


We have to be spirit born as spiritual beings by resurrection or instant change at the coming of Jesus the Christ to be fit to enter, see, of inherit the kingdom of God, then we will be unable to sin.

 

There was law before Moses' law.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

This was written nearly 500 years before Moses and the written law, and the scriptures say the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before God.

What law had they broken? NATURAL LAW. It is obvious to anyone that men and women are designed for each other, and that men with men, or women with women is unnatural and contrary to God's design and intention.

Paul shows this in Romans.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Men by NATURE understand homosexuality is wrong, you don't need written law to understand this.

By the way, this argues against the doctrine of Total Depravity, if men are utterly depraved by nature, sins like homosexuality would be NATURAL.

But back to the subject, Paul also writes in Rom 2:12-15 that men without the written law keep the law, showing the law written upon their hearts, and ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES.

There has always been law, even before the written law of Moses, and this is exactly what Paul is referring to in Rom 5:13-14.

 

You are deeply deceived. There was not written law before Moses.

 

This is not about social governances by man. This is about the law of God. There was no written law from God prior to the law of Moses. As how I know it is because the bible says there was a time before the law. A time when the law entered human time Romans 5:20

 

I notice you are careful to say "written" law. You are correct, there was no "written" law from God before Moses.

But there was law. Did Adam and Eve have a written law? NO. They had a spoken law, but it was certainly law.

And Gen 13:13 shows there was natural law before Moses, God called the men of Sodom wicked and "sinners". So, if there can be no sin without transgression of the law, how could God himself call the Sodomites "sinners"?

So, scripture EASILY refutes your view. The fact that there was not a written law from God does not mean there was no law in place. It very much was, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged by God as exceedingly sinful without a "written" law and justly destroyed. Men by NATURE know and understand homosexuality is sin.

 

This is about God's law to man and that was not given until Moses in reagrds to living with no sin after salvation. It is possible as I have shown in my first post.

 

Fal, as I look through your answers (like this one) to me, and to others, I see that you are being trite and putting no effort into discussing anything with pretty much anyone. The same holds true in another thread I was just reading. If you are not interested in debating the issue, in responding to those who have responded to you; but rather just give them angry little quips, then maybe the threads should just be closed.

 

Whether a thread is closed or not is not my call so go for it is you want. My response though short was accurate and that is all that matters. There was no written law from God prior to Moses.

 

That is no verse that speaks of "written law" is there?
Was there law before Moses, yes or no?
Of course there was!
There was a law (command) right from the garden of Eden--not to eat of the forbidden tree--or, what would happen?
Breaking God's law has its consequences.

 

No written law?
Romans;
2:23
2:25
2:26
2:27
3:19
3:20
3:21
3:28
3:31
4:13
No written law? :laugh:

 

Are you laughing at yourself?
You quote Scripture that quotes the law of Moses. So?
What is your point?

Was there a written law before the law of Moses?
The Bible doesn't specify that it had to be a written law, did it?

Here is the verse under discussion, for I fear you have lost all perspective of context:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)
--Note: "Sin is not imputed when there is no law."
The word "written" is not in that statement.
Paul is writing hypothetically. Why? Because there was law, and has been law ever since the Garden of Eden. And as long as there has been law there has been sin, and the consequences thereof.

 

The point is there was and is a written law and it had a beginning.

 

1. Romans 5:13 does not speak of a written law.
2. When did this law, referred to in Romans 5:13, begin?

 

Yea right! It is speaking of the law of Moses given through Moses

 

Sin has been in existence since Adam and Eve.
The LAW that Adam and Eve broke was the "Law" that God gave them--not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They disobeyed that Law.
Law has existed since creation. It just wasn't Moses Law, and the verse doesn't say it had to be Moses' Law.

 

The law given to Adam was to Him alone. No one aftere the fall can duplicte that sin so that law is not more. The only law given after that to all mankind was the law of Moses.