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Featured Is Sunday sacredness in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, May 29, 2021.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You are arguing the Greek with the wrong person.
    I did not translate the KJV, WEB or YLT Bibles, so your axe to grind is with individuals or teams that are long dead. I merely stated the obvious about what THEIR translation actually says.
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    You wouldn't contest that the practice of the most Modern Translations was to translate the plural article of Luke 2:49 to my father's house. They translated the Article Only into the house even though there is no word like οικοσ or Σπιτι.
    Likewise, Darby could translate 1 Cor 16:2 by including home.
    Setting aside Darby, KJV, WEB, YLT which are mostly Literal translations rendered that portion to
    < lay by himself in store>
    Does it mean < go to the church every Sunday and donate the money there>?

    We can see the desperate effort to create Sunday Gathering by human beings, not by the Holy Spirit.


    Eliyahu
     
    #62 Eliyahu, Jun 3, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    An honest, if off-topic answer:

    I see something deeper and more fundamental than Saturday or Sunday in the instructions for each person to lay up "near himself" as God has prospered him. Note that THERE IS NO CHURCH TO STORE THE COLLECTIONS! There is no "sacred building". There is no "greater Christians" (Clergy) and "lesser Christians" (laity) in a master-servant submissive role within the Body of Christ as presented in Scripture.

    WE ARE THE CHURCH! Each and every member is the Church and the money "collected" was stored by the members and brought together at the time of need. This seems a more important lesson for the MODERN CHURCH than Saturday vs Sunday services. Here is the exact same thoughts expressed from the lips of Jesus:

    Matthew 23:1-12 [NKJV]
    Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."​

    Now to discuss your thoughts on quickly closing shop Friday, resting Saturday and balancing the books on Sunday.
    Maybe. The verses do not render your interpretation impossible, so it cannot be dismissed as false. Were we discussing Orthodox Judaism (like Jerusalem when Jesus walked its streets), your interpretation would be more likely than not. However it is still eisegesis (even if good esigesis and correct eisegesis) because the actual verses do not actually SAY that. They only state that the money was collected by each individual on Sunday. Even "at home" is an assumption since they could have kept it in their business if that is where they kept there other money (also my eisegesis) or literally on their person at all times.

    What we do know is that the Church in general and City to which Paul wrote the letter was mostly Gentile and not Jewish. We know that the Jerusalem Council made a clear statement of minimum requirements for Gentiles with respect to the Law (and Sabbath Worship was not mentioned). We know that Jewish Christians were expelled from the synagogues shortly after the period covered by the Book of Acts. We know that Sunday worship was common within 100 years according to the ECF writings.

    I would posit that setting aside the money on Sunday represented an act of worship at the weekly gathering of predominantly non-Jewish Christians to honor the resurrection of the Son of God, their Lord and Savior. Like the example set by Jesus on the earth, doing good was not "work" to be avoided but "work" that honored and pleased the Father. Setting aside money for the suffering Brothers and Sisters in Christ in Jerusalem ... tangible proof that Gentile Christians loved Jewish Christians ... was a work Jesus would approve of and the Father would be proud to receive as worship. That is MY eisigesis of setting aside money on Sunday.
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Thanks.
    I don't expect we can reach the agreement in a short time.
    The other aspect than what I wrote as the background, the most of the donations at the Early Church could have been the agricultural products except the officers, soldiers and merchants.
    So, the imagination that the Corinthian believers would have separated the agricultural products at home on Sunday.
    The other point which you mention about Gentiles of Early Church is written in Acts 15.

    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Therefore there was no need for the disciples to emphasize on the Sabbath, because they never imagined the church would shift the day of gathering from Sabbath to Sunday.

    Sabbath is the shadow of Christ.
    We enter into Christ Jesus by being born again
    We rest in Christ, then He works in our stead. This is the real Sabbath
    Therefore one can say Jesus Christ is the Real and Main Sabbath.
    But we cannot say Sunday is the shadow of Christ and Jesus is the Real Sunday.
    Mark 2:26-28 says Jesus Christ is the Lord of Sabbath.
    Does Bible say Jesus is the Adonai of Sunday anywhere?
    Romans 14:5-6 can still be fulfilled even while we call Sabbath the Lord's Day ( Rev 1:10).
    Everyday of the week is precious even if we call Sabbath is the Lord's Day.
    This is what Paul meant in Romans 14:5-6

    1 Cor 16:1-2 doesn't prove that Early Church had the meetings on Sundays as it talks about the storing at home.

    Acts 20:7 happened in the Saturday Evening. Sunday Evening is the second day of the week.
    They had the Hapdalla, not the Lord's Supper. Does your church gather in the evening of Sundays?

    Col 2:16
    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

    If you ignore, destroy, violate, abolish the Sabbath and go to the clubs and bars, then could you avoid the judgment by others? Is it what the verse meant?
    The Greek word for judge is Katakrinow, which means Condemn. If you destroy and spoil, defame Sabbath, then can you not be condemned?


    Acts 1:12
    12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

    Why were they mindful about Sabbath if it was abolished after the Resurrection?

    Acts 13:
    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    If they were gathering on Sundays, why didn't Paul ask the audience to come next day, the Sunday, but on next Sabbath day? There was no Sunday Service!


    There was no single verse inside the Bible which indicates the gathering on Sundays


    Eliyahu
     
    #64 Eliyahu, Jun 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Sabbath was ONLY given to the Jewish nation and people as the sign of their Old Covenant with God, but we are now under the newer and better One, as NO gentiles ever were put under the Sabbath in the NT Bible!
     
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  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Exodus 12:49

    49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

    James 4:
    12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

    11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

    What is James talking about?

    Leviticus 23:
    3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation

    Could you find any statement that tells the change of the Holy Convocation from Sabbath to Sunday?

    There is ONE LAW by One Law-giver. When was the Sabbath abolished?
    Inside the Bible, could you show me that they changed the Day of Holy Convocation from Sabbath to Sunday?

    Indeed, we have been offered the Better Sacrifice by Christ and His Blood. So, the Sacrificial
    Law was changed from Animal Sacrifice to Jesus Sacrifice on the Cross. But the Moral Law such as Honor Thy Father and Mother, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not lie, Thou shalt not steal, have not changed.
    Do you think they are changed?
    Do you think only the Sabbath was changed? When and How?
    After Resurrection? Did Jesus tell the disciples to ignore Sabbath, after His resurrection?
    Then why were they mindful about the Sabbath in Acts 1:12?

    Rev 21:
    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    Do you admit that the Bride of the Lamb is the New Testament Church including many Gentiles?
    Then can you notice the Bride consists of 12 tribes of Israel in verse 12?

    Gal 6:
    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Paul blessed the Israel of God. Are you not among the Israel of God?


    Eliyahu
     
    #66 Eliyahu, Jun 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The sabbath was never observed by any until given by God to Moses to keep for israel, and was NEVER re given to gentiles under the new Covenant!
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    God engraved His commandments in the conscience of the human race when He created the world and human beings.( Genesis 1:26-2:2). God created Adam and Eve in the likeness of God Himself, especially of Jesus Christ, and rested on the Sabbath.
    Abraham observed the Law, Torah ( Genesis 26:5)

    Genesis 26:5
    Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    עֵקֶב אֲשֶׁר־שָׁמַע אַבְרָהָם בְּקֹלִי וַיִּשְׁמֹר מִשְׁמַרְתִּי מִצְוֺתַי חֻקּוֹתַי וְתוֹרֹתָֽי׃

    Gentiles are grafted to Israel( Romans ch 11:17) and will form the Bride of Lamb
    The Bride of the Lamb consists of 12 tribes of Israel ( Rev 21:9-12)

    Keeping the Law is never the pre-requisite for the Salvation or Justification,
    but it is a matter of Obedience and the Blessings.
    Therefore the ECF didn't have to emphasize on the Torah to the gentiles.
    There will be no problem with the Salvation if anyone disrespect the Law but believe in the Redemption by the Lord Jesus.
    However, there will be the limitation in the blessings.

    Matthew 5:19a
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven

    Even if anyone ignore and abolish the Law and Sabbath, he or she can still go to the Heaven but will be called the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven

    Therefore God used the gentile Christian Believers greatly who respected the Law.
    John Wesley and Charles H Spurgeon are the important figures among them.



    Wesley declared the perfect harmony of the law and the gospel.
    "There is, therefore, the closest connection that can be conceived, between the law and the gospel. On the one hand, the law continually makes way for, and points us to, the gospel; on the other, the gospel continually leads us to a more exact fulfilling of the law. The law, for instance, requires us to love God, to love our neighbor, to be meek, humble, or holy. We feel that we are not sufficient for these things; yea, that 'with man this is impossible;' but we see a promise of God to give us that love, and to make us humble, meek, and holy: we lay hold of this gospel, of these glad tidings; it is done unto us according to our faith; and 'the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us,' through faith which is in Christ Jesus. . . .

    "In the highest rank of the enemies of the gospel of Christ," said Wesley, "are they who openly and explicitly 'judge the law' itself, and 'speak evil of the law;' who teach men to break (to dissolve, to loose, to untie the obligation of) not one only, whether of the least or of the greatest, but all the commandments at a stroke. . . .
    The most surprising of all the circumstances that attend this strong delusion, is that they who are given up to it, really believe that they honor Christ by overthrowing His law, and that they are magnifying His office while they are destroying His doctrine! Yea, they honor Him just as Judas did when he said, 'Hail, Master, and kissed Him.' And He may as justly say to every one of them, 'Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss? It is no other than betraying Him with a kiss, to talk of His blood, and take away His crown; to set light by any part of His law, under pretense of advancing His gospel. Nor indeed can anyone escape this charge, who preaches faith in any such a manner as either directly or indirectly tends to set aside any branch of obedience: who preaches Christ so as to disannul, or weaken in any wise, the least of the commandments of God."-- Ibid . 264

    Great Preachers and the Ten Commandments

    Other than SDA, there have been Sabbath-Keepers all the time throughout the history, I believe:

    7th Day Sabbath Baptists. : SDB World Federation ( 7th Day Baptists World Federation)
    Nazareth Baptists
    Church of God
    Some of Waldensians
    Messianic Jews
    List of Sabbath-keeping churches - Wikipedia

    I know this cannot be implemented completely in accordance with the Bible and therefore
    the true Sabbathkeeping can be done only after the Lord Jesus comes again.
    But the Truth itself is that Sabbath was never abolished by God, but by RCC and human beings.

    If you are determined to honor Jesus Christ by overthrowing His Law, it is up to you!


    Eliyahu




     
    #68 Eliyahu, Jun 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  9. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Thats why Gods is the judge of all things, not man, and at the end that is what matters and He has the final say.
     
  10. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Question, where does the 8th day concept come from, it appears from what I've seen to be the Gnostics in Alexandria.
     
  11. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Because at the end, God will use one standard to judge and guess what that is, transgression of the law of love, which is part of His character.
     
  12. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    We are all grafted in..


    Romans 11:11-24 King James Version (KJV)
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
     
  13. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    At home, makes sense.
     
  14. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Nothing from the scriptures or Christ or the apotles, so who should we follow God and His Word or mans tradition? I think we know that answer.
     
  15. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    If you want to look at what happened, here is a good source...
    "The religion of the Roman Catholic Papacy was inherited from Rome. It is well known that Constantine the Great brought all sorts of pagan practices into the church. This is recognized by both secular and church historians. In fact, the name ASupreme Pontiff@ (Pontifex Maximus) was used by the pagan Roman emperors. After the Edict of Milan was signed in the year 312 A. D., Christians were restored as bona fide citizens of the Roman Empire. The result of this is described by Dave Hunt:

    'Freedom at last from persecution seemed like a gift from God. Unfortunately, it set the stage for an apostasy that would envelop Christendom for more than a millennium. Christ=s bride had been wedded to paganism.@ (Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, pp. 202-203)

    Constantine, emperor of the Roman Empire, was the architect of this Edict of Milan (313 A. D.). Regarding Constantine, Hunt remarks:
    'A brilliant military commander, Constantine also understood that there could be no political stability without religious unity. Yet to accomplish that feat would require a union between paganism and Christianity. How could it be accomplished? The Empire needed an ecumenical religion that would appeal to every citizen in a multi-cultural society. Giving Christianity official status was not enough to bring internal peace to the Empire: Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagans could 'convert' without giving up their old beliefs and rituals.

    'Constantine himself exemplified this expediency. He adopted Christ as the new god that had given him victory in the crucial battle at Milvian Bridge in 312 A. D., and brought him into Rome as its conqueror. Yet, as Caesar, he continued to function as the Pontifex Maximus of the Empire=s pagan priesthood, known as the Pontifical College. . . As a 'Christian' Emperor, he automatically became the de facto civil head of the Christian church and seduced her with promises of power. Thus began the destruction of Christianity and the process that created Roman Catholicism as it is today.@ (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, pp. 106-107)

    It was 'Christianity', in fact, which gave the Empire a unity and continuity that held it together culturally and religiously. When the Empire later disintegrated politically under the onslaught of the Barbarians, it was held together religiously by the all-pervasive presence of the Roman Catholic Church with its ingenious ecumenical blend of paganism and Christianity still headquartered in Rome.@ (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p. 110)

    John Henry Cardinal Newman makes this admission:
    "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments; the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleisen, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the church. (Henry Cardinal Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 373)

    Philip Schaff, one of the greatest church historians ever to wield a pen, wrote the following:
    "But the elevation of Christianity as the religion of the state presents also an opposite aspect to our contemplation. It involved great risk of degeneracy to the church. The Roman state, with its laws, institutions, and usages, was still deeply rooted in heathenism, and could not be transformed by a magical stroke. The christianizing of the state amounted therefore in great measure to a paganizing and secularizing of the church. The world overcame the church, as much as the church overcame the world, and the temporal gain of Christianity was in many respects cancelled by spiritual loss. The mass of the Roman Empire was baptized only with water, not with the Spirit of the gospel, and it smuggled heathen manners and practices into the sanctuary under a new name. The very combination of the cross with the military ensign by Constantine was the most doubtful omen, portending an unhappy mixture of the temporal and the spiritual powers.@ (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, p. 93, bold is mine). https://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/notesondanielseven.pdf
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Which verse says "bring....on the Sabbath"
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And, even with these different views among men, what does God do? He makes them stand.
     
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    The point is that this verse doesn't prove the Sunday Gathering, Worship Service on Sundays in the Early Church even though so many people bring this verse as a proof that the Early Church collected the donation on Sundays.
    They are mostly ignorant about the details but conclude the doctrinal issues based on their rough conjecture.

    Eliyahu
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    The 8th day can mean the new start but it doesn't erase the Sabbath, rather it strengthens the Sabbath.
    Leviticus 9:1 mentions it as the new start.

    Often the people rejecting Sabbath bring the concept of 8th day in Gospel John, but the real question is 8th Day after what?
    8th Day from Passover? - Any day of the week
    8th Day from the High Sabbath?- Any day of the week
    8th Day after the regular Sabbath?- Sunday
    8th Day after Resurrection? - this is Monday


    Eliyahu
     
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    C.H. Spurgeon, in his Sermons, 2nd series, page 280, writes:

    "The law of God is a divine law, holy, heavenly, perfect. Those who find fault with the law, or in the least degree depreciate it, do not understand its design, and have no right idea of the law itself. Paul says, 'The law is holy, but I am carnal; sold under sin.' In all we ever say concerning justification by faith, we never intend to lower the opinion which our hearers have of the law, for the law is one of the most sublime of God's works. There is not a commandment too many; there is not one too few; but it is so incomparable, that its perfection is a proof of its divinity. No human lawgiver could have given forth such a law as that which we find in the decalogue. It is a perfect law."

    D.L. Moody, in his book Weighed and Wanting, page 11, says:

    "Now men may cavil as much as they like about other parts of the Bible, but I never met an honest man that found fault with the Ten Commandments."
    He continues, on page 47, "The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. how can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    Great Preachers and the Ten Commandments


    Remember is mentioned when something was instructed before. This means Sabbath was already instructed before Mt Sinai, as we can see Abraham kept the Torah, Law ( Gen 26:5)


    Eliyahu
     
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