Is the Adamic sin imputed?

Clint,
With all due respect, please refer to my last post to Helen. The Greek exegete is there.......

[ October 21, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

~Westminster Confession CHAPTER VI

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment Thereof
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[124] This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.[125]

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God,[126] and so became dead in sin,[127] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[128]

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[129] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[130]


~Baptist Confession of 1689

._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

 

Clint, Chet,
I would assume you understand that there is a big difference between God decreeing something and God creating a thing, i.e. God creating evil and His allowance of it. God allowed sin to come into the world---He didn't however, create it.

Adam is our federal & natural head. He has the capability to pass on natural and federal traits.
God is not a man, He passes down none of these caracteristics. He has surely *created* men in His image, but His creation of that image is entirely different from what He has deemed (ordained/ decreed) mans responsibility is in the passing down (imputation) of certain things. Adam was responsible in passing *sin* down to his lineage as Christs responsibility is passing down *righteousness* to His people.

This was the whole point in my treatise on Rom 5:19.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Greek grammar and lexiclogy cannot be misinterpreted. The same Greek words are used in the general capacity to denote sin or sinning and the idea behind the sinner being exposed to punishment for that sin.

1 Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

[ October 22, 2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Clint,
I won't call you slow........My reply to the question was one page back. It reads:

Clint, Chet,
I would assume you understand that there is a big difference between God decreeing/ordaining something and God creating a thing, i.e. The difference between God creating evil or His allowance of it. God allowed sin to come into the world---He didn't however, create it. Man freely, of his own accord, fell.

Adam is our federal & natural head. He has the capability to pass on natural and federal traits.
God is not a man, He passes down none of these caracteristics. He has surely *created* men in His image, but His creation of that image is entirely different from what He has deemed (ordained/ decreed) mans responsibility is in the passing down (imputation) of certain things. Adam was responsible in passing *sin* down to his lineage as Christs responsibility is passing down *righteousness* to His people.

This was the whole point in my treatise on Rom 5:19.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Greek grammar and lexiclogy cannot be misinterpreted. The same Greek words are used in the general capacity to denote sin or sinning and the idea behind the sinner being exposed to punishment for that sin.

1 Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

 

Clint asks:
I will add one more question to chew on while you're at it: why did Adam and Eve not fulfill the command to "be fruitful and multiply" and begin the human race until after the fall?

Scott inquires:
How have you come up with that idea....that their "endeavoring for children" was necessarily after the fall? Because ch 2 precedes ch 3?

 

The scripture says:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

Lorelei,
Your question comprises the whole of biblical theology. It is an excellent question, mind you.
Based upon its multi-faceted characteristic, I must rely on forwarding you to reading material as the question cannot be answered here in this forum as the depth of material is much too deep for this venue.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Election/election.htm

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attributes.htm

 

Clint writes:
So being exposed to the punishment of sin equals being guilty of the sin? This is not so:

Ezekiel 18

14"Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: 15he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. 18As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19"Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Clint, you are trying to dismantle one of the most accepted principles of the Christian faith, that being imputation of Adams sin. This one verse does not in any way challenge the doctrine.
First of all, the above passage has to do with sins committed in a "national capacity", i.e. the sins of Manasseh, etc. The idea of sons & daughters "bearing, or not bearing, the iniquity" of the parent is meant to mean that the sons & daughters would gladly embrace, indulge, continue with the same sins that their parents sinned, hence the consequences if they did, or if they didn't, the benefit that would come from their obedience. It has little to do with the sin of our federal head Adam.

Clint, how can you honestly say that the termonology used in the Romans passage and those that utilize the same Greek word do not mean the same thing...........

There is no way to disconnect the exegesis of Romans 5:19.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners , so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Matt 9:3 uses the same term. Christ feels that this descripion of a sinner warrants "repentance"?

~ So, having compared the two verses with the Greek, one can ascertain that in regards to Romans 5:19, it literally reads:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners (AND IN NEED OF REPENTANCE), so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Please feel free to insert the definition in these previously presented scriptures.....

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners (harmartolos). But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners (harmartolos), and eateth with them.

Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners (harmartolos) also do even the same.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners (harmartolos): but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners (harmartolos), Christ died for us.

Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners (harmartolos) of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners (harmartolos), is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

1 Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners (harmartolos), for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Scott adds:
Having proven the case that the term *sinner* used in Rom 5:19 requires repentance, this in fact also provides *proof* that the fall imputed Father Adams sin to the whole human race (Again, allowing the Greek grammar and structure to speak from Rom 5:19).

Let us look at another verse in Romans:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Scott states:
Looks pretty clear to me?

Clint, are you implying that men are not condemned due to the fall?

Moving on..........

Scott previously asked:

I would assume you understand that there is a big difference between God decreeing something and God creating a thing, i.e. God creating evil and His allowance of it. God allowed sin to come into the world---He didn't however, create it.

Clint responds:

"I disagree"

Proverbs 16

4The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Scott inquires:
Clint, I am asking again because I want to be perfectly clear here........are you stating that God *IS* the creator of Evil?

[ October 23, 2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]