Is the "altar call" Biblical?

No, it says we are all like sheep gone astray. The Bible never describes the unregenerate as sheep. It describes them as goats.

Great verse, but completely irrelevant to the question I asked you. Where does the Bible ever say that church is for the unsaved?

You also quoted it out of context. It's talking about the proclamation of the Gospel to the Jews, not to making our church services fit the preferences of goats.

What's more, v 15 says that those preaching the Gospel are sent out from the church. The church is always for the Body of Christ, not for the unregenerate. Evangelism in the Bible is always done outside of the church.

 

I don’t think we are so far apart on this, maybe just needing some uniformity of the semantics. Sure I look at v7, but I don’t forgo: 5, 6, 8 and 9 while doing so. V5 - Ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord has given to every man. V6 - I have planted. V8 - … he that plants and he that waters are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his labour. V9 – For we are labourers together with God; ye are God’s husbandry.

I look at this as we are God’s laborers and all the increase belongs to Him, our Master. The fact the all the increase is God’s does not prevent us from freely reaching out.(“Freely” as an adopted child, Rom 8:14-17) As a matter of fact we are being told there is reward for taking this action (being a good workman trusting in God to provide the increase Mat 10:10). I believe I see what’s getting the water dirty for you; I agree that it is wrong to take credit for the increase; those in your area that you perceive as doing this need to remember Who is holding the stack of cards. Just sayin to watch out for that baby. :thumbs:

Poor Convicted has gotten himself in the middle of a battle and is taking fire from both sides…and here I am after taking some opposition to one of his statements coming to his defense on another…

JDF, you are using ambiguous meanings for the word “church” when attempting to prove your point.

If you are referring to the Church as the Body of Christ, then of course the unregenerate are not in the BOC. And of course evangelism is going to come from the BOC…still not a building made by our hands.

If you are referring to the church as a building then your building has a wall placed in it that I do not recognize as being biblically told not to pass through…actually through the examples from Jesus I have been told to do quite the opposite.

Further, to clarify the ambiguity, of course the Bible does not say Evangelism is done from those outside the BOC.

 

True. Some would say "neither are sound systems or the internet." But that misses the point entirely. The modern invention known as the altar call is something foreign to the elements of worship, whereas these other items are aids to an element.

Agreed.

I see this often as a pastor. Someone is asked about their salvation, and within the first few seconds you'll hear something about "going forward" at a service.

See above. This is true. People are relying on something foreign to the Bible for their eternal state.

Disagreed. The altar call completely replaces baptism as a means of public profession of faith. The person (in most Baptist churches) is welcomed to the body of Christ and voted into membership, all without a baptism. Baptism is a moot point, a virtual waste of time. Although, curiously, this hypothetical person would likely be denied communion if they had the Table that night.

True. I heard a pastor say as much just yesterday.

True. I've seen fights over what is and is not an approriate "altar for people to be saved at."

I can see this.

Very, very true, and probably the most horrifying part of this whole thing. The altar call is also used as a metric. If the altar is filled with people, it was a good service. Nevermind these people can leave the altar and go resume their lives of sin. The test of response to a sermon is not whether your feet move, but whether your heart and mind moves.

Well said and worth saying.

 

I believe that in the pastor's preparation of his sermon, he needs to bring the entire sermon to a climax, that being in the conclusion of the sermon. It needs to be: What are you going to do about it--the application. What will you do with Jesus? How does this apply to you? What is God's will for your life?

In other words the conclusion ought to be so strongly worded that it is, in effect the invitation. If the pastor feels led to give an altar call after that, that is up to him. But a good message preached under the power of the Spirit with a good invitation in the conclusion shouldn't really need "another" altar call IMO, unless the pastor wants a time for people to come and publicly testify how the Lord has been working in their lives. It is up to the pastor. Every local church is different.

 

This is well put, balanced, fair, Biblical, and thorough.

I'm shocked someone hasn't reported it alraedy :smilewinkgrin:

 

DNK said

well said...

 

DHK, I like what you said in post #84. Now, some followup questions:

You have preached the gospel, have made the application and included your invitation in your conclusion. What happens next?

Do you simply conclude the service? Or,
Do you have a period of time for a response? If so, with or without music? Do you wait quietly, or do you exhort people to respond. Or,
Do you invite people to meet you (or counselors) right after the service? Or,
Do you do something else?

Pastors, I welcome comment from all of you, as well as DHK.

 

From another thread:

 

I will (in the body of the sermon) ask people to trust Christ, etc. I typically don't have to do anything else. They seek me out. But I do often say that if anyone has questions about this, they need to seek me or another leader out or the Christian friend who invited them. In the case of a non-salvation committment, people know when I'm available. In the case of evangelistic meetings, we have rooms set aside. Also, in the bulletin, there is a response card where someone can indicate they want to talk to someone or note a response.

I've done everything, and I still from time to time do public invitations when at a place where they are still committed to the practice.

Remember, whenever we talk about a time of "response," we're talking about ANYTIME and not limiting it to just a concluding time during a service. Sometimes people respond in the middle of a sermon.

 

I’m sure it was a nice, clean job of denying the little children too, but I find that troubling. Funny, when I came to the Lord at 35 it had nothing to do with my fear of sinning, it only involved that I was acknowledging that I missing the mark in the decisions I was making in my life, that this was causing me failure and grief and I needed Him to guide me in the right ways to live my life. Oh, I was turning away from my wisdom and telling God that only He was wise enough to show me the way to live my life, admitting that no wisdom of this world could help me, but would I have used the phrase “I am a sinner and repent of my sins”, no, don’t think those words were near me or that I even had such power to do so. Faith? I didn’t say a thing about faith either at that time although I’m sure God saw the faith I was displaying when I came putting all my hope in Him while asking Him to take over my life and guide me. I had no clue about such rules as confessing sin, repentance and faith, nor did I even understand the Trinity which ended up being part of my plea; all these things came later with many tears as God answered my prayers to know Him and showed me His great love. Funny thing though, I felt a peace come into my life that I had never known and could literally feel His loving Hand on me guiding me from that time forward.

So this is a disturbing thought to me, because I don’t think I would have passed your test either Butler, although neither would I have been intimated by some man like a couple of 9 or 10 year old girls when I was convicted by the Holy Spirit to stand up and turn to God and ask to know Him. I will guarantee you this, that I would NEVER have stood for some religious leader telling me if I was ready or not, or what the rules where. Nope, I didn’t need any person’s approvals and frankly I know that I was baptized in the HS the moment I asked God to come into my life. Hopefully those little girls knew the difference in the truth of whether they wanted to “just” be baptized, as is suggested, like their friends in some “earthly church water” under the strict approval of those in charge of the building or if they were actually asking God to come into their lives within their limited understandings because they believed/had faith that He was the Way and the Truth they were seeking right at that moment.

 

Is that for you to say?
God works through three means:
1. Through the Holy Spirit.
2. Through the Word of God.
3. Through His people.

The Great Commission is given to believers in Christ. God uses His people to preach His Word that the Holy Spirit might use it. If that person is not going to hear the Word until Sunday, then chances are that that is the day he will get saved.
If the Holy Spirit urges you to go to his house earlier than Sunday and explain the gospel to him that he might have that chance to believe earlier than that is your responsibility. But I guarantee you--He will not be saved without hearing the Word of God! Normally that comes on Sundays. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

 

Thank you, Tom, this is a wise and sensible practice.

 

Benjamin, either I failed to make clear my point, or you've missed my point completely. So let me clarify.

We're dealing with eternal matters, here. I can't afford to blow an uncertain trumpet, nor can I allow children to respond to an uncertain trumpet. Their souls are at stake. I questioned these young girls thoroughly to make sure they understood these spiritual things. It was clear to me that they did not. I conferred with my pastor and he agreed with my assessment.

I understand about the illuminating, convicting and regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. I cannot, and will not, lead these young girls to a place where the Holy Spirit has not prepared them to go. And I guarantee you that when the Holy Spirit stirs their hearts, they will not come and ask for baptism. They will come with broken hearts, an awareness of their sin and its consequences, and an understanding of their spiritual condition.

They did not.

I did not deny them anything. They did not need my approval. But they did need someone to make sure they did not believe they would be right with God if we baptized them.

 

Jerome, in post #89, you quoted me twice about my Romania experience. I appreciate the quotes, but I'm not sure of the point you are making. Could you elaborate?

 

Let me defend DHK. Like it or not, Sunday is probably when most people hear about the Lord Jesus. DHK clearly approves witnessing outside the church walls. And I don't detect that he is suggesting that the Holy Spirit's drawing is always to a building.

But he might. Let's don't put the HS in a box.

 

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Right here shows where Jesus goes after the sheep which have gone astray. Now, unless you advocate a "fall from grace/backslide", this is plainly talking about those who having been confronted by the Law(Romans Chapter 7), and died. After this death/seperation from God, He will seek after them. And those who repent of their sins, Jesus will bring back to the fold.

Look, whether you will accept this or not, the church building is for both saint and sinner. The CHURCH, is the body of Christ, Jesus being the Head of the CHURCH. The CHURCH is the BODY of born again believers, the church(lower case "c"), is the building where believers meet to worship the Lord. The CHURCH and the church are two completely different things. So the church(lower case "c" again) is for both saint and sinner(saints to worship, sinners who are seeking His forgiveness).


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Bro. Benjamin, I too, agree that we are not that far apart. I have gleaned a lot from your posts, and can tell you have studied a lot!! I really do enjoy your posts!!:thumbs:

It's like I stated in an earlier post; we do labor with God, by preaching, singing, shouting, talking to sinners outside the church, going to the nursing homes and visiting the sick in the hospital, etc. But unless God has "tilled the ground(the heart I mean)", our words are hollow. It takes God to set up the Godly sorrow, it takes God to open the eyes of the spiritually blinded, to unplug the ears of the spiritually deaf, etc. Sure, we labor with God, but our work is small compared to His.

I have seen too many men around here who say "I", "we", "us", etc. when they should have said "God", "Him", "He", etc when someone has been saved!!

Thanks Bro. Benjamin!! But I can handle them with the help of the Lord!! I stand 6'2" and weigh 214 lbs!!! My Father is much bigger than I, so He will help me when I need it!! :thumbs!! Love you Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Sorry 'bout beating the proverbial dead horse, but this is what I hate 'bout "altar calls".

The preacher stands up front, "Just as I am" is playing in the background, he begins telling people to get up and "walk the aisle", pray a prayer and you will be saved. Those who are afraid to confess Him before men, He will be ashamed to confess them before His Father and His holy angels, etc. It's like they are trying to create an "atmosphere" for the Holy Ghost to work in.

The Holy Ghost doesn't need an " atmosphere" to do His work. This is what He needs to do His job.

He needs a sinner with a heart broken by sin, that has been affected with a Godly sorrow, that God caused by drawing Him. He needs someone who realizes the amount of wreckage sin has caused his/her life. One who is willing to humble theirself under His mighty hand. One who is crying from the depths of their broken heart, repenting of their sins, in front of a Holy God!! One who knows if they die in that condition, hell is their destination. This is what God needs right here. This equates to the seed sown in the "good hround" in Matthew chapter 13.

Its not the one who walks the aisle to receive salvation, but the one who walks the aisle because salvation has already happened to them, and they want to tell the church what a GREAT THING God has done for them!! This is the only reason why anyone walks upfront in the ORBs. That is to tell their story of what God did for them when He saved their soul!! "This is my story, this is my song.........."

i am I AM's!!

Willis