Is the Anti KJVO Movement making a difference?

Michelle has given three scripture references:

Deut 4 referrs to the adherence of God's commandments. It is not referring to scripture in general, neither is it referring to a specific translation.

Prov 30 referrs to neither scripture as a whole nor translations of scripture.

Rev 22 is referring to the wrirings of Revelation. It is neither referring to scripture as a whole, nor is it referring to any translation of scripture.

These are not a matter of personal opinion, these are matters of scripturally contextual fact. If one asserts that these three verses are referring to scriptural translations, then one is guilty of adding to scripture, something which we're scripturally forbidden from doing.

So I ask again, please provide scriptural support for the doctrine of single-translation-onlyism. Anyone? Anyone?

 

Michelle said "You have not one scriptural support for your belief that God has nothing to do with a translation, nor that he could NOT PROVIDE IT in any language perfectly."

Nobody is denying that.

 

Nobody argues those scriptures michelle, what do the have to do with the dicussion?

Here'e one that is just as applicable - The Lord is saddened when He sees a lack of faith in the fact that He can keep His word alive in modern English. How do I know?

John 11v35 - "Jesus wept."

 

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As a result, they believe the King James Version is the perfectly preserved Word of God in the English language.
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If it isn't then what is and how do you know? Do you believe God provides his people His perfectly preserved words? I would like your SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for YOUR BELIEFS. You have never provided them. You never will, because the scriptures are clear about adding to, and taking away from the words of the Lord, and that they are PURE and PRESERVED FOREVER. You clearly do not believe what God has plainly said.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

But, they must be smart enough to throw out the apocrypha. (Please don't leave out scripture C4K).

 

As you have NEVER provided scriptural support for your belief. Your continuous "cut and paste" passages have NOTHING to do with the version debate.

 

Then Michelle, why does the KJV have words left out and words added? You know why? Because it was translated by man. In order to correct it, it has been "fixed" almost 100 times since 1611. Just what single manuscript does the KJV match-word-for-word, Michelle? It doesn't exist. Like ALL translations, it is a compilation of different manuscripts, including the Latin Vulgate. FACT! Now, how does that fit into the scriptures you keep quoting? ...and how does it prove anything about the particular KJV.

If it is word-for-word accurate, I guess you are referring to the Oxford edition?

By now, it is actually getting much better, but it is still not perfect.

But, don't twist my words, it DOES contain the Word of God!

 

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Again, same old question, where does verse 17 talk about the NASV or any translation?

If I accepted to Vuglate as God's Word I could make the exact same claim about the KJV.
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To weaken or change God's truth - to which would include ANY PORTION OF IT, is corrupting it. God gave it for a reason, every single word of it, not to have ANY OF IT ADDED TO, OR TAKEN AWAY from, OR CHANGED. In doing this, it can and does change the overall message, and testimony of Jesus Christ our Lord. The Holy Spirit would not preserve something, to have it taken away, or not preserve something to have it later added. God preserves HIS WORDS, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Something claiming they are the words of the Lord, and evidencing these alterations, is a big red warning flag that should be heeded, as God has so given us warning thereof.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Doesn't that sound like the old saying, "So far as it is translated correctly."?

 

I'm going to try this one last time.

Show me "scripture" Michelle, where the KJV is this perfect word-for-word translation. It has only been available as it is now since about 1769. So, if an older manuscript is found, we are to assume that it is wrong because the KJV (out of twenty or thirty translations) has it perfect. Who told you that it is the only one that has it perfect?

The NASB has all of those scriptures you keep quoting. What makes you think it is not the perfect translation? Because it wasn't here in 1611? Well, neither was the King James that you hold today!

 

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You are the one who has the doctrine that is not in the Bible. I never said God didn't have a hand in translations, but where do you find that God's hand was ONLY in the KJV? It AIN'T there, Michelle.
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I am still waiting for you to provide the scriptures from where your belief in this issue comes from. YOur belief does not COME FROM THE SCRIPTURES, but from the opinions of men. My beliefs, and others, as I have shared with you, COME FROM THE SCRIPTURES. I did not believe this first, and then look for scriptures to support my belief. My belief comes from the very scriptures that logically support that belief - to which is where my belief comes from in the first place. You however cannot understand this, because you are only looking at the label and name attached to those scriptures. This is your folly.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

You know, GB, I think that the King James just seems old to people and seems like it has been around forever, based on their life spans.

My daughter thinks the moon-walk was ancient history. The current, most used, KJV was revised last in 1769. This is a not even 150 years ago. About three or four generations. Compared to 2000 years, it isn't even 10%. It is all perspective. Michelle, who hasn't studied much history has difficulty seeing the time-frame here. It might even help if someone could provide a picture of a time-line that is online showing the Bible translations, it would be interesting.

It sure is sad that the world did without the Word of God for 1769 years.

 

Can't do anything to the original to make it better.

Where are the words "for Him" in the KJV in Gen 12:1? The sixth word in the MT in verse one is not translated in the KJV. Why not? If the KJV is inspired why did it leave out God's word that is in the Hebrew MT? Did God forget, was it overlooked by man, or was it not inspired?

 

No but the KJVO have. No KJVO can point to any set of Scriptures or Bible for any generation ever at any time (except the one who had the autographs) apart from the KJV (1611-1850?) as being the "pure" words of God.

Therefore unless the KJVO can do that they have in effect said that God was wrong in claiming that He would preserve his "pure" word(s) for every generation.

Also it has been claimed that MV’s have ALTERED those word(s), the KJV has also been ALTERED several times from 1611AD – 1850AD to correct errors of spelling and translation by the very translators themselves (the first time) and at least on one occasion they flip-flopped concerning a the translation of a certain phrase because they were not sure which way it should have gone.

No doubt they will tell bring up the fact of the quality and/or quantity of the corrections to the KJV, and no matter what the number or quality of there corrections these are OK because IT IS EVIDENT that these are OK becasue it is the KJV (circular reasons abounding). Might I also remind them that God is not capable of the smallest error of any kind. Yet they are either not able or not willing to tell us which revision of the KJV (1611-1850) is indeed the “pure” word(s) of the Lord who is incapable of the smallest error of any kind.

No, have you? Where is it in the Bible that says that translators (as opposed to prophets and apostles) of the Word of God are capable of translating the original languages of the apographs into the “pure” English (or any other language) words of God? The KJV translators themselves made it EVIDENT that they were not these folks in that two years after publishing the First Edition they corrected and republished it followed by several subsequent revisions.

As mentioned above which of the many different KJV Revisions/editions 1611AD-1850AD are the perfectly preserved word(s) of God?

“things which are different are not the same" so only one of them can be that "pure" and perfectly preserved word.

Not so, God allowed alterations of wording when the NT quotes OT passages.

Neither Ruckman or the KJV translators are/were apostles.

HankD

 

I've been reading Michelles' stuff for months.I have never seen her truly answer anybodies questions.She never will.
I have only two thoughts for which I might get kicked off this board for but I can't hold back any longer.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Ignorance can be overcome but stupid lasts forever.

 

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Michelle, would you quit quoting Psalms 12:7 when in context verse 5 applies:

5. For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

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And the following answer and way that God answers "HOW" He does this is in the next following verses. Read it again:

Psalms 12

1. Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

A plea to the Lord for Help because the godly man ceased and faith failed (there were not any faithful men) because of this next verse:

2. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

The Lord states WHAT He will do and WHY:


3. The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4. Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5. For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.


And HOW He will do this and WHY HE is to be TRUSTED:


6. The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


The result of men that place their TRUST/FAITH in the words of men ABOVE THAT OF THE WORDS OF THE LORD(-to which also reveal Jesus Christ who is able to keep them and preserve them/us through faith) is the following:

8. The wicked walk on every side, when the
vilest men are exalted.


This IS THE CONTEXT and to which the ENTIRETY OF SCRIPTURAL TRUTH also CONFIRMS.


love in Jesusu Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Indeed, the words of the KJV translators.

HankD

 

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Deut 4 referrs to the adherence of God's commandments. It is not referring to scripture in general, neither is it referring to a specific translation.

Prov 30 referrs to neither scripture as a whole nor translations of scripture.

Rev 22 is referring to the wrirings of Revelation. It is neither referring to scripture as a whole, nor is it referring to any translation of scripture.
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This is the poorest excuse and belief based upon opinion, is not supported at ALL WITH ANY SCRIPTURE. Please read this:

salms 119

1. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2. Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3. They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4. Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5. O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6. Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7. I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8. I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
9. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12. Blessed art thou, O Lord: teach me thy statutes.
13. With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
14. I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
15. I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
16. I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
17. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
18. Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
19. I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
20. My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
21. Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
22. Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.
23. Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.
24. Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellers.
25. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
26. I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.
27. Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
28. My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
29. Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
30. I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
31. I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O Lord, put me not to shame.
32. I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.
33. Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34. Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35. Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36. Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38. Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39. Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
41. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord, even thy salvation, according to thy word.
42. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
43. And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
44. So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
45. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
46. I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
47. And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
48. My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
49. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.
50. This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
51. The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.
52. I remembered thy judgments of old, O Lord; and have comforted myself.
53. Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
54. Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.
55. I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56. This I had, because I kept thy precepts.
57. Thou art my portion, O Lord: I have said that I would keep thy words.
58. I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.
59. I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.
60. I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.
61. The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.
62. At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.
63. I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.
64. The earth, O Lord, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.
65. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O Lord, according unto thy word.
66. Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67. Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
68. Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
69. The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
70. Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
71. It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
72. The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
73. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
74. They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.
75. I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.
76. Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.
77. Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
78. Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.
79. Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.
80. Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
81. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.
82. Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?
83. For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes.
84. How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?
85. The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.
86. All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
87. They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.
88. Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.
89. For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
90. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
91. They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.
92. Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
93. I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.
94. I am thine, save me: for I have sought thy precepts.
95. The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.
96. I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
97. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98. Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
100. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
101. I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
102. I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
103. How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104. Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
106. I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
107. I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O Lord, according unto thy word.
108. Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments.
109. My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.
110. The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.
111. Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
112. I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
113. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
114. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
115. Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
116. Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
117. Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
118. Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.
119. Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.
120. My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.
121. I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors.
122. Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.
123. Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.
124. Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.
125. I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
126. It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law.
127. Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
128. Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
129. Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.
130. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
131. I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.
132. Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name.
133. Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
134. Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.
135. Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes.
136. Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
137. Righteous art thou, O Lord, and upright are thy judgments.
138. Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.
139. My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.
140. Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
141. I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
142. Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
143. Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.
144. The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
145. I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O Lord: I will keep thy statutes.
146. I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.
147. I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.
148. Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.
149. Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O Lord, quicken me according to thy judgment.
150. They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law.
151. Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth.
152. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
153. Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.
154. Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.
155. Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
156. Great are thy tender mercies, O Lord: quicken me according to thy judgments.
157. Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.
158. I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
159. Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O Lord, according to thy lovingkindness.
160. Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
161. Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.
162. I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
163. I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
164. Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.
165. Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
166. Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
167. My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
168. I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
169. Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word.
170. Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
171. My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
172. My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
173. Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
174. I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.
175. Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176. I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.


You have a very unbiblical view of what SCRIPTURE is and what the Lord has said concerning them and shows your attitude about them. This Psalm, and many others are exactly what one who loves the words of the Lord believe, know and share and exhibit/express and have in their heart. Please also remember this:

2 Tim. 3

2 Timothy 3

1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Again, a battle of interpretation. But the battle will never end because michelle is unable to understand the difference between scripture and her interpretation of scripture.

Michelle, we agree with you that scripture is inerrant. We don't think that your interpretation is inerrant. I guess that's the problem.